Revolutionizing Toilet Policies: A Toolkit for Period Equity

Mark Taylor 00:00:39

Hello. Welcome back to Education on Fire. Today we're talking about the toilet policy toolkit. Now, this is a toolkit developed by young people and educators to help schools revolutionise their toilet policy for period Equity. I've got two guests today. Chrissy Cattell, CEO of iRise, an award winning global leader in menstrual justice programming, policy and research. And Kelly Greenaway, PHS Group's Period Equality Lead, who over the last nine years has led a number of thought leadership campaigns with the hygiene provider. Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hi Kelly and Christy, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Fire podcast. I think this topic is going to be incredibly important for people listening and because I know certainly having had two girls go through school, it's something which came up before we thought the conversation was going to be important and then we suddenly realized the resources and what the support they needed wasn't necessarily in place. So as a parent I've got this sort of first hand understanding and knowledge. So I think this conversation hopefully will really sort of support people listening as we go forward. So, Kelly, why don't you start tell us a little bit about your role and what it is that you're able to support people with.

Kelly Greenaway 00:02:09

Yeah. So good morning Mark. My name is Kelly Greenaway and I am the Peeweed Quality Lead at PHS Group. So for those of you who don't know who PHS are, we are the leading hygiene service provider in the UK, Ireland and Spain. So we service over 120,000 customers, over 300,000 locations. So we have got a purpose of putting people at the hearts of our products and services and a demonstration of how we're able to deliver on that purpose is the work we've done around period equality. So we're very proud that we deliver period equality schemes and period dignity schemes across England and Wales via central government and via local government, as well as lots of workplaces all over the uk. We're also very proud that we've got the longest running piece of research into period equality and education in the uk and this paper and this research we're about to talk to today is just an extension of that. We've been really, really lucky and very proud to be working with Chrissy and Irise on a to toilet policy toolkit and as part of this we've co created some research and for the first time we've looked at things like teachers attitudes and knowledge around periodicality schemes. And of course what's relevant today is all around toilet access.

Mark Taylor 00:03:23

Fantastic. And Chrissy, tell us about your involvement with it.

Chrissy Cattle 00:03:26

Hi. Hi, my name is Chrissy Cattle, I'm the CEO here at Irise International. So Irise is a small Sheffield based charity based here in the UK and our work in the UK is youth led. So we've got a youth board, the Empower Period committee, made up of young activists from across the UK and over the last decade we've been sort of standing behind young people in the UK to understand how to sort of drive menstrual justice. And over the last few years, throughout every Period Counts campaign, we've gathered hundreds of stories from young people around period equity in schools. And something that came through really strongly again and again was the issue of toilet access. So in 2024 we brought together teachers, students, sector allies into a roundtable to co produce a toilet policy toolkit which is the kind of piece of work that we're going to be talking about today. And the goal of that piece of work was to sort of balance the needs of teachers with the needs of students to be able to come up with toilet policies for individual schools that make sense for that individual environment. So be that primary, secondary sen settings, colleges, so that we can find a way for schools to manage toilet access for period dignity, but also for generally for all students because we've been hearing stories of toilets being sort of permanently closed shutters on toilets and of course it's people who menstruate who are severely impacted by that.

Mark Taylor 00:05:01

That really I think is such an important conversation and I think it's easy to have these conversations in whatever these topics are, but to actually then have the ability, like you say, to have resources, to have pieces of research and actually be able to put policies in place or certainly to have things in place where people can understand why we're doing these things, why it's important and for everybody to have a voice is, is a really key thing. So Kelly, why don't you take us into some of the information related to this and make sure some of the key pieces of information are things that we've heard.

Kelly Greenaway 00:05:34

Absolutely, yeah. I think one thing I would like to point out, Mark, is that we have come a long way in tackling peer inequality. I think it's really important to recognize firstly some of the huge advantages have been made through government funded schemes. We know that accessing peer products still remains a problem and we know there's so much more to do, particularly around toilet access. But I think encouragingly, we know that 96% of secondary schools have also signed up to the Department for Health Education free period of quality program as well. So there's lots being done. But toilet access remains the real issue. So from our research, for example, it shows a worrying toilet policy in many schools. So we're looking at, according to teachers, for example, 2 and 3 students are unable to access toilets at their school freely at any time. That's 65%. And then almost third, 29% are needing permission from a teacher to leave the classroom and 15 are requiring a pass to be issued for toilet access. And I think what I was pretty stunned to understand was that 5% of teachers reported school toilets being locked at some point during the school day, including break times, and then nearly as many as 4% are always shut off to student break times and lunch times. But I think there's one thing I'd like just to, just to kind of open up and clarify here is although those stats are pretty stunning, we do also think that worryingly, the stats are probably much higher than that. So positivity bias can distort survey results anywhere from 10 to 40%, depending on the context and depending on the presence of social pressures, which basically means that many teachers might not be feeding back the negative information 100%, truthfully. So these stats could be a lot more concerning than what we actually think.

Mark Taylor 00:07:24

Well, that is slightly, not slightly very worrying, isn't it, in terms of those things? And I think also it's, it's also that sense of how is that possible? Because I know certainly my kids were kind of. Yeah, well, we don't go here even if they could like say, whether it's a break time or lunchtime, where it's not a particularly inviting, it's probably not the right word, but it's not something we want to do. We try and make, to make our journey to a different part of the school or not able to go somewhere directly. And I think it's worrying that is a, as a society and as a school culture, that that's even, even a possibility. Because if you think if you bring that into the home scenario of kind of, well, you can't go here where it's not safe to be there, it is sort of mind blowing. I know we're talking about many children in one particular school, but yeah, that's really, really amazing to sort of hear and like saying for people to be forthcoming with. With what those. Those results are as well. So, Chrissy, why don't you take us into your. Your sort of insights of this and what. Your kind of thoughts are based on the people and especially the students who have been involved as well.

Chrissy Cattle 00:08:31

So thank you. Yeah. We know that for a lot of schools that are signed up to the period product scheme, which is, as Kelly mentioned, a really brilliant step in the right direction, but for a lot of schools, there's complexities, you know, around capacity. So a lot of the products have been brought into schools, but they might be kept behind reception or locked in cupboards and they're not there freely to access for students. And there's kind of this kind of gatekeeper scenario where there's already shame and stigma and young people maybe don't feel confident to go to reception to ask for a period product. So that's a lot of what we heard from young people alongside toilets sort of being inaccessible in general in school time, class time, but also, as we've explored, sort of sometimes for the whole school day, we heard reports from a number of students that that was the case. And we know that schools are having a really tough job right now. And toilets aren't closed because teachers don't want young people to be able to access toilets or period products. They're closed because of those concerns around many, many other things, such as vaping, bullying, skipping class, all of those kind of things. So what we really wanted to do was bring together those voices. So we wanted young people to be able to kind of air their concerns and their frustrations and for teachers to be able to do the same. And the toolkit, in that way, really brings together the voices of young people, the voices of the teachers, to try and find solutions. So the toolkit talks through ways that schools can engage young people in these conversations through appointing a period champion student and a period champion teacher. It talks through how you can manage issues like how young people can access period products in exams, having a table outside the exam hall their period products are, and that visibility then is really, really important as well. So the Toolkit exists, and through the partnership with phs, we were able to include that in the resources going out to every school signed up to the scheme. And as of early next year, we're going to be piloting the Toolkit alongside a menstrual health curriculum in a number of schools across the uk. So this will help us sort of test and learn with schools. Is this working? How can the toolkit help adapting it for primary, secondary and SEN settings with the hope that after the pilot we'll be able to adapt the toolkits, but also come up with national toilet policy guidance, because there really isn't any. Schools are left to their own devices to sort of come up with toilet access policies and how to implement the period product scheme. And I think we're hoping that this piece of work will equip schools with the sort of knowledge and the resources to be able to kind of fill that piece that's currently missing.

Mark Taylor 00:11:06

So let's just talk first of all about the difference between the different settings. So what, what are your sort of examples or the conversations that you've heard between the difference between schools ideas in a primary setting and a secondary setting? And then you said sort of special schools as well. So let's start with primary. What were their concerns, what were their thoughts? What was their reasoning behind maybe not being as forthcoming as they maybe would be helpful?

Chrissy Cattle 00:11:33

So I think that what we hear a lot from primary schools is the age of people, of young people starting their periods is, is much earlier, much earlier now than it, than it was before. So there is this sort of need for period products, toilet access, period education, menstrual education in primary schools. So the pilot that we're going to be doing is around like really age appropriate menstrual education, really engaging menstrual education. So in that way sort of changing the whole culture of the school and kind of focusing less on the biology and more on the kind of let's make it fun, like let's do use props and tools and explore period products in a way that is sort of like, yeah, really engaging for the younger audience. But I think for primary schools it's something that wasn't always on the agenda and now really does need to be on the agenda. And I think for secondary schools, for teachers, the concern is really much more around behavioral management. You know, you've got really, really sort of low capacity for teachers. They're dealing with so many different things. And it's the issue with toilet access and implementing the scheme properly is a kind of lack of resources and equipping teachers and students to be able to kind of do that together. And I think when it's such a stigmatised issue as menstruation continues to be, for teachers to start having those conversations can feel really challenging. And SEN settings, I mean, looking for funding at the moment to be able to adapt the pilot for that setting specifically, because of course it's slightly different and it needs to be sort of more intense and more thoughtful and more considered. And again, an area that is just like sort of really overlooked and underfunded. So I think the work that we want to do is sort of take that very specific approach in each of those settings, but always at the focus of it and at the heart of it is, is it being youth led and really responding to what young people want and need?

Mark Taylor 00:13:30

And what's the kind of the conversations that had between that sort of school setting and pupils? Because I would imagine the school is kind of, we need to get through the school day. Our assumption is that if anyone's going out of class, they're like you say, it's about doing something they shouldn't be doing. They don't have the responsibility or the, or, or actually doing it for the, the right reasons. You know, you're not going to the, to the loo because you need to be in that scenario. You're going because you'd rather not be in maths or whatever it happens to be. And of course what they don't have is the money or the staff to be able to supervise the school beyond the classrooms. It's just not, that's just not in place and, and I can completely see the other side of it. And pupils are like, well, no, this is just my basic human need. I need to be able to do this. So is was there ever a sort of within those discussions, a common ground, an understanding of both sides, really understanding each side of that conversation, or was it a little bit more sort of standoffish?

Chrissy Cattle 00:14:23

I think it's, the more you go into it, the more the complexity is revealed. Like some schools are dealing with it better than others around toilet access. But I think, you know, we talk about in the toolkit this kind of gold standard loo. So the gold standard loo, which of course requires investment that a lot of schools don't have, but would be sort of a gender neutral single cubicle with a sink, with a bin to be able to, you know, manage products, reusable products, wash cups, etc. And that sort of private space. But I think a lot of the direction that some schools going in is actually we've heard reports of cubicles being opened up straight onto the corridor, so you haven't got space for students to gather. And you know, when I was young, I remember you'd get your friend to put on the hand dryer while you sort of ripped your period products open because you didn't want anyone to hear. Imagine that when your cubicle is going straight onto the corridor where lots of other students are moving around. So I think there does require some investment for the period product scheme to be properly implemented, for it to be evaluated, for it to be extended. And I think that's a lot of the work that we're trying to do. But in terms of, I think teachers are really concerned around students saying I want to go to the toilet because I want to go and skip at this class or vape or text or use my phone. And there's a lot of policing of toilets as well by teachers, which I think we've had lots of reports of young people finding that very sort of oppressive to be, you know, surrounded by teachers when you're, when you're trying to go to the toilet, whether you're managing your period or not. So yeah, I think it's a complex complexities of all of those issues really.

Kelly Greenaway 00:16:04

And I think it is a pretty complex, complex issue. And I completely piggyback on what Chrissie said around the research. Teachers are concerned about vaping, about vandalism, about truancy, that type of thing. But at the end of the day, learners do not choose when they start their period and when they need to change their period products. And we believe restricting toilet access during lessons will increase anxiety and is damaging to health and well being of these learners.

Mark Taylor 00:16:32

And I'm curious because we talk a lot on the podcast about the collectiveness of education and from a PHS point of view, Kelly, tell us sort of from a company standpoint, how having an organisation that's not directly involved in education and working in the way that you are to support these issues and to collaborate with other people to make this something which one has a voice but also you have the sort of the people on the ground, as it were to make to make the environment as good as it can be for people using them. So tell us a little bit about that company ethos and I guess you're the ideal person within your role within it.

Kelly Greenaway 00:17:14

Yeah, I think as I mentioned, we've got 120,000 customers, over 300,000 locations, which means that we have got a unique opportunity to drive real change and to innovate. So we believe it's our responsibility as an organization, as a, as a hygiene organization to really drive that change and to innovate and to lead with those conversations because we have, it is our responsibility. We have, like I said, so many customers and so many organizations that we touch every day that we can make some of those decisions and help support them with those decisions. So from, we know from our experience of working with schools and businesses, you know, that they want to do the right thing, they want to make sure that women are supported within the workplace. And that's not just about, you know, period products. That's also been, again, as Kritty said, about having environments for her, having access to those bins, having the basic necessity that every woman needs basically to be able to change their products when they're on the period, but also dispose of their products. And, you know, we work not just with education, but lots of businesses across the UK as well that are supplying free period products to make sure that both their employees and both, you know, their visitors and staff are supported when we're at work, to keep them at work, to keep them in education, because it's really important that we're able to do that.

Mark Taylor 00:18:32

And I guess these conversations are different in different parts of the country, let alone in different countries and those sorts of things as well. So, Krissy, take us into your sort of insights is to that sort of regional or it literally international kind of conversations that are happening.

Chrissy Cattle 00:18:48

Yeah, so we, we work across the uk, so we're based in Sheffield, but our Youth board is made up of young activists from across different parts of the country. So the way that our youth board works is they obviously lead on their own campaigns and being on the board is kind of peer connection for them, but it also enables us to sort of understand and hear and listen around sort of different contexts, different places. Some of our young people based in Wales, where of course the. The period proud sort of initiative is really thriving and we know that the. The councils in Wales are given now the opportunity to. To tender for period products, but also period education in schools as well, which we really see as like a brilliant step. Obviously, there's some amazing progress happening in Scotland as well. But for us, we also work here in the uk, but we also have a sister organization based in Uganda and a grassroots network that spans all of East Africa. So we see the sort of. The comparisons and the sort of differences, but also the huge similarities. And that's what I writes was born out of. We actually began in Uganda and then when came back to the uk, we were like, no, these issues remain here in the UK and are sort of just as. Just as challenging, really. Of course, the context is different. So our sister organisation runs a program in Ginger district in Uganda which has been running for a number of years now, which distributes period products, but also just whole community education. Because I think, you know, part of this issue is Products, of course, access to products is really, really important. But a lot of this issue is sort of deeply rooted in the shame and stigma which still surrounds menstruation and the inability for people to have those conversations and to kind of change those social norms and for young people to be able to advocate for themselves, to be able to advocate when something doesn't feel right, when something feels atypical. It really is all about sort of cultural change. And I think the work that we want to do is around that. It's around all of those things, and it's really around school culture and schools really taking a lead on these things and listening to what young people need.

Mark Taylor 00:20:58

And what we're trying to do from a toolkit point of view, is it having this is now available, please use it and sort of give you sort of that structure and those. That understanding of what it is. Are you sort of trying to support people who maybe haven't decided they want to do that, to say, it's here, please, please make the most of it, or was it more the other way around that people were like, we needed something to be able to support ourselves. And this gives us an opportunity to be able to do this in a structured way.

Chrissy Cattle 00:21:27

I think the toolkit is available on our website to download in English and Welsh, and it's also available on the PHS Period Equity guidance that you can download all of those resources for us. You know, we want all schools to use it, to have a go at using it, have a go at implementing it. We're very welcome teachers to reach out to us and sort of give feedback, ask questions. We're happy to host kind of Q&As, but the targeted pilot that we're doing this year is in 14 schools at the moment. But that's really around kind of adapting the toolkit. So, like, what works? Like what, what does work when you're trying to sort of come to an agreement between students and teachers around toilet access? You know, a lot of schools use like, hall passes. Like, we've heard that they don't really work, but maybe, maybe, maybe there's a way of adapting that so it can work. And does having a student body, like a council around, period, equity, will that work? So there's lots of different kind of. It's almost kind of like tasks that schools can do with each other to be able to create a toolkit that works for them. So we welcome, we welcome any feedback on that. And then, of course, the idea will be to sort of, you know, embed that learning, adapt the toolkit, hopefully get it in a digital platform at some point. Obviously now we're combining it with the curriculum, so sort of testing and learning at this stage, because there hasn't really been, you know, it's a recogn issuing growing in recognition the issue of toilet access because the situation is, I think, worsening. But for us, and I know for VHS as well, it feels like there's so much potential with the Period product scheme from the government and we just want to see it sort of used to its full potential and schools able to sort of implement it in a way that really supports students for period equity.

Mark Taylor 00:23:15

And Kelly, how are you sort of finding the impetus that you're able to do, like you say, with the company that has this of access and the ability to have conversations with so many different people, whether it's some sort of government all the way through to schools and other organizations in terms of the. The rhetoric of kind of this is brilliant, we want to help and support this and how easy it is then to actually make significant change rather than just sort of revealing data and the optimism of what we'd hope would happen compared to maybe the reality.

Kelly Greenaway 00:23:47

Yeah, I mean, we started our peer to quality journey back in 2019. We've got, like I said, the longest piece of research as well, that's out there. We've worked with a lot of organizations, education businesses to help implement these schemes. I think that one of the objectives we first had when we launched our Period of Quality campaign was basically to break down those taboos, to break down that stigma around periods, promote those open conversations from an education perspective. We know, we think the learners, sorry, the schools should be able to ask learners what they want as well, have those open conversations in schools. So girls are not afraid to talk about their periods or ask for those products. We know there's hugely successful government schemes out there. The DfE, Department of Education have got financial schemes. Scotland are doing really well, Wales are doing really well. So there's lots of really great schemes out there. The issue is the girls actually accessing the products and we know from the research that this is quite happening and we really want to encourage the schools to be able to download, you know, have those open conversations, ensure the toilets are open. The Pura products have been accessed easily. We work with a school in Harlow, Harlow College. It's got a great scheme. They've got a tote bag filled with products behind the cubicle door. They do lots of communication across school to let the girls know the products are easily accessible. The toilets are open for the girls to access them as and when they need them. You know, we want schools to be able to embrace really good campaigns like that, you know, so the girls are able to change their products whenever need to change products. Like I said, we don't decide when we come on, come on our period. It just happens. So we just want to make sure that the toilets are there, the free period products are there to access, and the girls are able to basically stay in school.

Mark Taylor 00:25:37

Because I guess the most important thing, as we know with so many things in education, it's about the understanding and things being in place for when you need it. It's a bit, if you're in crisis, you need to know you can ring this number, you need to speak to this member of staff and in terms of like, say if a girl's coming on in a period starting understanding what that next step is immediately, because you know where you can go, who you can speak to, what the, what the school is able to support you with rather than kind of, okay, I'm now in this particular situation, I'm in the middle of class or wherever you happen to be in school. What, where do I go, what do I do? Who can I speak to? Is like the worst, worst case scenario. And the fact, the fact that we're even having to talk about the fact that that isn't just a given and to begin with, it's still sort of slightly completely bamboozled me because like I say, that sort of just human need, that human understanding just you would think in that basic support of children is the most important thing. And in terms of learning itself, you know, unless everyone is healthy, they're supported, they're given the environment that they need to thrive, then education and learning doesn't really thrive in itself. So it makes so much sense that this is out there, it's being discussed, and all of these things are actually in place to really support everybody through their entire journey of school and specifically around this matter. So the acronym FAJA is really important for us here at Education on fa and that by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment. What is it that strikes you first of all about either those words individually or collectively? And Kelly, we'll start with you.

Kelly Greenaway 00:27:19

Empowerment for me. And I was thinking of an experience I've had and there was an example really of something I've had three years ago. So I've been quite lucky with my career in phs, and I had an opportunity three years ago to take part in a Women in Leadership program. And for me, it's been truly transformational experience. So the program has really empowered me to kind of like believe in myself, give me confidence to recognize my own potential as a leader. But one of the most special parts of the program for me is becoming part of what we call a tribe. So just to explain what the tribe is, a tribe is basically made up of nine aspiring women across PHS group are all basically striving to grow and become leaders. And the tribe is become my safe space, circle of support, encouragement. We've all got shared ambition and many of us, including myself, have stepped up to lead into a leadership role over the last 12 months. I know the program and the strength. The tribe has really played a huge part in getting us all to where we need to be. So empowerment for me really resonates with me.

Mark Taylor 00:28:26

Fantastic.

Chrissy Cattle 00:28:27

And Kristy, Yeah, I think empowerment, but also feedback, like we don't always use that word, but I think at the heart of what IRISE does and exists to do is sort of be led by young people, listen to young people. The toolkit was created by a diversity of people. So in there is a strong commitment to supporting all young people. So that also includes like trans and non binary youth and, and support schools to be able to think about sort of gender neutral toilets and all of those things. So I think like for us feedback is really important and I know that in school settings it's hard to carve out that time and it's hard to create space for young people to be able to share their experiences. But I think the work that we try and do at irise, but also through this work is to really sort of make sure that that is prioritized.

Mark Taylor 00:29:18

Amazing. And where do you want people to go to access the resources, the help, the toolkit, those things, where's the best place for people to go and visit?

Chrissy Cattle 00:29:29

So the toolkit's available on our website, so www.irise.org toiletpolicytoolkit. It's on there. You'll be able to access it there in English and Welsh on our website. And we just also invite people to reach out to us directly. We're always interested in speaking to schools, speaking to teachers. We've got a number of schools on the pilot, but we can add more that's, that's possible, especially at this sort of, this stage in the, in the, in the kind of calendar year. But yeah, we just welcome feedback really of people that have used the pilot. Sorry, the toolkit, does it work, does it not? What needs improving, what could be adjusted? It's very much a live document for us. So. So, yeah, just really welcome any feedback and engagement around it.

Mark Taylor 00:30:13

Fantastic. Well, Kelly, Chrissy, thank you so much for being in and talking about this. And congratulations on working in that partnership, because like I say, it takes lots of people in lots of different roles in different organizations to make these things happen. And to take it beyond the conversation to actually have, like, say, a toolkit or actual research in these things which actually shows exactly where we are and give us a sort of a pointer as to where we can go in the future. So, yeah, thanks very much indeed. I really appreciate you both chatting today.

Chrissy Cattle 00:30:41

Thank you.

Kelly Greenaway 00:30:42

Thank you very much.

Mark Taylor 00:30:44

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.