Helping People Get Smarter by Thinking Dumber

Speaker A 00:00:22

Yeah, it's funny because there's really no reward structure for dumb, and yet dumb has been proven throughout history to offer solutions to really gnarly problems.

Speaker A 00:00:37

Yeah, that is funny, because I don't know if you feel this way.

Speaker A 00:00:39

As I get older, I feel like I know less Right than I did when I was.

Speaker A 00:00:44

When I was younger.

Speaker A 00:00:45

And it's almost as if as you start to learn more things, you realize how much you just don't know.

Speaker B 00:00:51

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:00:52

It's like we've.

Speaker A 00:00:52

We've really forgotten how to be dumb.

Speaker A 00:00:55

We've forgotten what it means to ask dumb questions and to come up with weird ideas.

Speaker A 00:01:01

So every idea he has is usually just dead wrong.

Speaker A 00:01:05

His assumptions and his.

Speaker A 00:01:06

His instincts are.

Speaker A 00:01:07

Are quite bad.

Speaker A 00:01:09

And.

Speaker A 00:01:09

And it's pointed out to him that, hey, you know what you should do?

Speaker A 00:01:12

You should actually just do the opposite of what you would typically do.

Speaker A 00:01:17

So the whole episode is essentially him doing the opposite of what his instincts are, and he ends up having just the best day ever.

Speaker A 00:01:26

And then I realized I'm like, I should really do a George Costanza day.

Speaker A 00:01:29

Like, what would that be?

Speaker A 00:01:31

I really noticed that when the idea felt dumb, like, when I would first tell people about the idea, they'd go, oh, that's a terrible idea.

Speaker A 00:01:38

That's really dumb.

Speaker A 00:01:39

Why would you do that?

Speaker A 00:01:40

That was the thing that ended up becoming more successful.

Speaker A 00:01:44

It's fascinating to me that most creativity comes from people trying to copy other people, but they're so bad at copying that they could only be themselves and they create something new.

Speaker A 00:01:54

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:01:55

Just always delight in the rogue.

Speaker A 00:01:56

Go rogue.

Speaker A 00:01:57

Love it.

Speaker C 00:01:59

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor, and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, the place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Speaker C 00:02:13

Listen to teachers, parents, and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Speaker C 00:02:21

Hi, David.

Speaker C 00:02:21

Thanks so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast.

Speaker C 00:02:25

Great to chat to people from the US always.

Speaker C 00:02:27

And I love the.

Speaker C 00:02:28

The way the education world and the learning crosses borders, crosses continents, because it's essentially about the human connection, is about what we're learning and why we're learning it.

Speaker C 00:02:36

So, yeah, thanks so much for joining me from.

Speaker C 00:02:38

From over there.

Speaker A 00:02:40

Pleasure to be here.

Speaker B 00:02:41

Thanks.

Speaker C 00:02:42

So why don't we sort of dive in first of all, in terms of Dumafy?

Speaker C 00:02:46

Tell us what that is for those people that haven't actually come across it before and what you're able to support people with.

Speaker A 00:02:51

Sure.

Speaker A 00:02:52

Dumify really came from this Idea that came to me pretty late in life.

Speaker A 00:02:58

I was like 28 years old when I finally came to this realization.

Speaker A 00:03:02

And it was that there's a path to getting smarter that actually requires you to get dumber in a sense.

Speaker A 00:03:09

And what that means is it's not about lowering your iq.

Speaker A 00:03:12

It's not about creating all sorts of chaos.

Speaker A 00:03:16

It's really about looking at the part of your brain that asks dumb questions, that comes up with really weird ideas, and rather than dismissing those out of hat to sort of sit with those ideas a little bit longer than is comfortable and really kind of inspect them to see if they actually might be the solution to a problem, essentially.

Speaker C 00:03:39

So in terms of how the, the learning works, I mean, obviously we're talking about education here today.

Speaker C 00:03:45

I kind of get the feeling that from my kids having gone through school sort of relatively recently, and also my memory of being in school, the last thing you want to be seen to do is to ask a dumb question because you expect everyone to know the answer.

Speaker C 00:03:59

You're supposed to know all the answers before you've even learned them.

Speaker C 00:04:02

So how do you sort of get across that sort of mental or emotional barrier to sort of then sort of explore this to get the benefit?

Speaker A 00:04:09

Yeah, it's funny because there's really no reward structure for dumb.

Speaker A 00:04:15

And yet dumb has been proven throughout history to offer solutions to really gnarly problems.

Speaker A 00:04:24

So as an example, if you were to think about somebody like Isaac Newton, there's that time where it's the plague and he goes back to his parents farm and it's a place for him to sort of be bored essentially and to be sort of alone in his thoughts and think about what a dumb question that might have been to him.

Speaker B 00:04:46

Right.

Speaker A 00:04:47

The fabled apple that falls.

Speaker A 00:04:48

And then to ask that question like, what is that force?

Speaker A 00:04:51

That's a really kind of silly question.

Speaker A 00:04:53

If you really sit, sit and think about it now, we take it for granted, right.

Speaker A 00:04:57

Or we think about, when you're a child, there is that dumb question that you're just, you're really begging to ask.

Speaker A 00:05:05

And there's probably about 10 other kids in that room that also have that same dumb question and would just love for someone at least right, to bring that up.

Speaker A 00:05:13

But I always felt like it would be great for teachers to have some sort of reward structure that actually rewards those types of dumb questions.

Speaker B 00:05:22

Right.

Speaker A 00:05:23

Which takes patience.

Speaker A 00:05:24

But all throughout life you are challenged by your parents to be smart, your teachers to be smart.

Speaker A 00:05:30

And so there's sort of like this filtered thinking set that Happens where it almost becomes performative, like you're performing to be smart.

Speaker A 00:05:38

And when you sort of take out that curious or that curiosity function in your brain, which is to me, what sort of lies in this dumb part of your thinking skills, you're really missing out on half of the solution sets right, essentially.

Speaker A 00:05:53

So part of me feels like for students as well as for parents and for teachers to allow that to happen in class needs to be rewarded in some way.

Speaker A 00:06:05

So whatever that means for a teacher, whatever that means for a parent, how can you reward that curiosity even if the question seems really silly or really ridiculous?

Speaker A 00:06:14

Yeah.

Speaker C 00:06:15

And the fascinating thing is, of course, is that when you've got really young children around, that's exactly what you're encouraging and what you expect.

Speaker C 00:06:22

Because what's happening is, is that you appreciate that as a toddler, you know, children know very little.

Speaker C 00:06:28

They're exploring, they're learning as best they can in a way that they can.

Speaker C 00:06:31

And I wonder sort of at what age we suddenly start to think, no, you should know something.

Speaker C 00:06:36

But then having not learned it or not asked the question or had had that experience and how that sort of snowball starts to work.

Speaker A 00:06:43

It is interesting when you think about what is the age with which, right.

Speaker A 00:06:46

Your, your sort of dumb mind becomes more of, of an annoyance to people.

Speaker B 00:06:51

Right.

Speaker A 00:06:51

Rather than something that gets rewarded.

Speaker A 00:06:54

Because every four year old who comes up with really dumb questions certainly get, you know, a nice pat on the back for being curious.

Speaker A 00:07:02

I wonder, I think by the time you get to, in the United States, when you get to like junior high, when you're 12 years old, right.

Speaker A 00:07:08

I think that's, that's, that, that, that really strange place where you're sort of in between adulthood and you're still.

Speaker B 00:07:15

Right.

Speaker A 00:07:15

Kind of a child and the expectations really start, start to shift.

Speaker A 00:07:20

But I find it fascinating that, you know, even as adults who have shown us that, you know, you can ask really silly questions to make big breakthroughs, I think of people like Richard Feynman, the physicist, who was constantly kind of goofy in a way and always asking really bizarre.

Speaker B 00:07:39

Right.

Speaker A 00:07:40

Questions.

Speaker A 00:07:41

We've just had so many adults who have shown us that thinking dumb.

Speaker B 00:07:45

Right.

Speaker A 00:07:45

Can yield really good results, that it still strikes me as interesting that we still have not found that even in older people that it's okay to be curious and to ask those dumb questions.

Speaker A 00:07:58

So I think it's like more or less like, what's the age?

Speaker A 00:08:01

That then happens.

Speaker A 00:08:02

It's also another question would be why does it last for so long?

Speaker A 00:08:06

Why is There never this realization that dumb thinking is actually quite good at solving problems.

Speaker C 00:08:13

Yeah.

Speaker C 00:08:14

And what just struck me there is the fact that of course it starts to go full circle.

Speaker C 00:08:18

I sort of think about where I am in life now compared from a technology point of view.

Speaker C 00:08:22

I was sort of thinking specifically compared to my kids.

Speaker C 00:08:24

You know, there must be so many dumb questions I. I would ask them is my kids, they start to roll their eyes.

Speaker C 00:08:30

It's like, well, how can you not know how to do that on your iPhone or, or you know, the latest thing on Tick Tock or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker C 00:08:36

And yeah, and it's that same sort of thing to me I'm thinking, oh, maybe I should know some of this stuff.

Speaker C 00:08:41

But to them they're like, that really is a.

Speaker C 00:08:43

Because you know, they're just immersed in it.

Speaker C 00:08:45

And of course we've sort of gone out the other side.

Speaker C 00:08:47

And while we might know the more academic things or the things that we ought to know as adults, obviously some of the things and new trends that come along, then we aren't and then we sort of that role sort of reversed.

Speaker A 00:08:57

Yeah, that is funny because I don't know if you feel this way.

Speaker A 00:09:00

As I get older, I feel like I know less Right.

Speaker A 00:09:03

Than I did when I was, when I was younger.

Speaker A 00:09:05

And it's almost as if as you start to learn more things, you realize how much you just don't know.

Speaker A 00:09:11

But then there's the opposite effect, which is when you become really expert in something, it really becomes almost an albatross where it's hard to break through into new types of thinking because you get locked in sort of this ossified.

Speaker A 00:09:23

You know, this is the way we've always done things or this is the way.

Speaker B 00:09:26

Right.

Speaker A 00:09:26

That this is always done.

Speaker A 00:09:28

Which is why I think we're always so enamored by the four year old that can ask that really dumb question that really makes you ponder sort of your expertise to begin with and can offer some sort of breakthrough.

Speaker A 00:09:40

But it is quite funny to me that scientists in particular seem to exhibit this maybe more than the general public does.

Speaker A 00:09:48

A simple example is people who are trying to cure cancer.

Speaker A 00:09:54

As an example, there was a really great question that was asked I think about 25 years ago.

Speaker A 00:10:00

The scientist was being told we're trying to develop this drugs so that we could actually kill the cancer.

Speaker A 00:10:07

And the simple question that came up in the room was, well, why are we trying to kill it?

Speaker A 00:10:11

Why aren't we trying to normalize that cell, like bring it back to a normal state instead of killing it.

Speaker A 00:10:17

And that seems like a dumb question.

Speaker A 00:10:18

At the time, it seemed like a really dumb question to ask, but yet it became a whole new path of study, essentially for that kind of medicine.

Speaker A 00:10:26

And it's those types of questions that I think science usually wants.

Speaker A 00:10:31

However, you know, it also gets really ossified very, very quickly with, oh, this is the way we've always done things.

Speaker A 00:10:36

This is the way that.

Speaker B 00:10:37

Right.

Speaker A 00:10:37

That this thing has always exist.

Speaker A 00:10:39

I think about, you know, like the.

Speaker A 00:10:41

The story of the jumping genes.

Speaker B 00:10:43

Right.

Speaker A 00:10:43

And that taking 30 years for people to actually understand that that really dumb idea and that dumb concept was actually true.

Speaker B 00:10:51

Right.

Speaker A 00:10:51

And it took 30 years, right.

Speaker A 00:10:52

To.

Speaker A 00:10:53

To get there, but would have never gotten there if.

Speaker A 00:10:56

If those dumb questions had not been asked.

Speaker C 00:10:58

And I think you bring up a really important point there in terms of sort of that social.

Speaker C 00:11:02

And just the way we are as a global nation now is the fact that if we want things to be different and some of the really big issues and big questions that we need to answer, you have to go about these things in a different way and you have to be curious in a very different way.

Speaker C 00:11:17

Otherwise, like I say, those same things go around the same cycles and the same sorts of questions are asked in the same way.

Speaker C 00:11:23

It has to be so different.

Speaker C 00:11:24

Otherwise we're just going to kind of reinvent the wheel that's just maybe not quite as round as it was before, but it's certainly not going to be any better.

Speaker A 00:11:32

Yeah, it's like we've really forgotten how to be dumb.

Speaker A 00:11:36

We've forgotten what it means to ask dumb questions and to come up with weird ideas.

Speaker A 00:11:42

We're so used to as a culture now, to trying to optimize or try and fix things around the edges, that in order to solve a problem that creates a step change, we've really sort of forgotten the tools that we need to do that.

Speaker A 00:11:57

As an example, there's something that I did quite early on that I didn't realize I was doing, but it was inspired by an old Seinfeld episode.

Speaker A 00:12:05

Are you a fan of Seinfeld at all?

Speaker A 00:12:08

So there's this episode where George, who's sort of like this really great buffoonish kind of kind of character, so every idea he has is usually just dead wrong.

Speaker A 00:12:16

His assumptions and his instincts are quite bad.

Speaker A 00:12:21

And it's pointed out to him that, hey, you know what you should do?

Speaker A 00:12:24

You should actually just do the opposite of what you would typically do.

Speaker A 00:12:29

So.

Speaker A 00:12:29

So the whole episode is essentially him doing the opposite of what his instincts are and he ends up having just the best day ever.

Speaker B 00:12:36

Right.

Speaker A 00:12:36

Essentially.

Speaker A 00:12:37

And I remember for me at least, that was something where I was knocking my head up against the wall.

Speaker A 00:12:42

I was, I was trying to get into this production company to write for this show that I really liked called behind the Music.

Speaker A 00:12:51

And back then this was sort of a docu style show.

Speaker A 00:12:54

And I loved it because it was really about taking these iconic legends of music and talking about their rise and then their fall and then their rise back again.

Speaker A 00:13:03

Had a really unique story structure and was fun to watch.

Speaker A 00:13:06

And I was banging my head up against the wall, like trying to figure out how to get in.

Speaker A 00:13:10

I'm going to parties, trying to make connects.

Speaker A 00:13:12

I'm writing letters, emails, I'm writing spec scripts, I'm doing right, all of that.

Speaker A 00:13:17

And then I realized, like, I should really do a George Costanza day.

Speaker A 00:13:20

Like, what would that be?

Speaker A 00:13:22

And so I decided rather than trying to write the best script to show those producers, I decided to write the worst script that I could.

Speaker A 00:13:29

And I ended up writing something called behind the Music that sucks instead of behind the Music.

Speaker A 00:13:34

And as silly as that sounds, I decided that I was actually going to animate that and put it up myself.

Speaker A 00:13:39

I was just going to show people.

Speaker A 00:13:42

And within like six months, there were about a million people watching that show.

Speaker A 00:13:47

This is all pre YouTube.

Speaker A 00:13:49

And it sort of started the what would become my very first company.

Speaker A 00:13:55

And that was sort of an interesting, valuable lesson for me as I realized, oh wait, there are sort of like these tools that I could use for myself that could actually help me not just in thinking about science or thinking about maths or thinking about.

Speaker B 00:14:08

Right.

Speaker A 00:14:10

Any type of other problem solving.

Speaker A 00:14:11

It's actually pretty useful for me personally.

Speaker A 00:14:13

But there are other methods that I really like.

Speaker A 00:14:16

Part of the skill set of doing an opposite day or doing something completely opposite to what your instincts are.

Speaker A 00:14:22

There is something that's actually called the make it worse method.

Speaker A 00:14:27

It's one of those methods that if you have a problem and you start to think, how could I actually make this problem even worse?

Speaker A 00:14:36

Like how could I really fail at solving this problem?

Speaker A 00:14:40

It often gives you an idea of what the actual problem is and you can actually kind of course correct, but other instances where you could actually try and make what you're trying to do worse and create something entirely new.

Speaker A 00:14:56

And one of the funniest instances of that is the potato chip.

Speaker A 00:15:00

The potato chip was actually invented by somebody trying to make the worst french fry imaginable.

Speaker A 00:15:05

He had, it's a funny story because he had this customer who would come in constantly criticize french fries.

Speaker A 00:15:13

So this poor chef is thinking, oh, the next time this customer comes in, I'm gonna do better.

Speaker A 00:15:18

I'm gonna, you know, make them crispier or I'm gonna make them softer, I'm gonna make them less salty, like whatever it was.

Speaker A 00:15:23

But I guess this customer just completely hated their french fries every, every time.

Speaker A 00:15:29

And the chef finally decided out of frustration that he was going to create the worst french fry imaginable.

Speaker A 00:15:36

So he cuts them really thin, he burns them, he over salts them, and suddenly everybody loves them.

Speaker A 00:15:42

And it's not because they love his french fries, it's because he's just invented the potato chip.

Speaker A 00:15:47

So like, you know, when I think about dumb thinking, that's really kind of, you know, the type of sort of mental models, right.

Speaker A 00:15:54

That I think of.

Speaker A 00:15:55

It's.

Speaker A 00:15:56

It's.

Speaker A 00:15:56

Rather than trying to make something better, which is kind of a very smart way of thinking, right?

Speaker A 00:16:01

It's you.

Speaker A 00:16:02

If you're, if you're stuck, how can I actually make something worse?

Speaker A 00:16:06

Can sometimes really yield interesting either breakthroughs for something new or a way to sort of reframe the problem and see things that you didn't see before.

Speaker A 00:16:15

That helps you understand the problem even more.

Speaker C 00:16:18

And it also changes the energy, doesn't.

Speaker C 00:16:20

It's a little bit like we sort of have, if you have like a yes day with your kids or something like that, it's like all of a sudden all those expect all the things that you think are limiting me suddenly go out the window.

Speaker C 00:16:32

And with that comes some really interesting experiences and some interesting situations.

Speaker C 00:16:36

Once you sort of got over the original sort of novelty of it all, there's just something about it not just being the norm.

Speaker C 00:16:43

And I think that's so freeing and like you say, opens up those possibilities to everybody.

Speaker A 00:16:47

Totally agree.

Speaker A 00:16:48

That's actually a really good example of what I would call the unconstraint method.

Speaker A 00:16:53

And it's a mental model that sort of flies in the face of.

Speaker A 00:17:00

There's this notion that you can be really creative if you really limit the resources.

Speaker A 00:17:04

The idea is under extreme constraints, people can think more creatively to solve problems.

Speaker A 00:17:12

While that can largely be true sometimes, that's actually the limiting thing.

Speaker A 00:17:19

Oftentimes people don't ask themselves about the real constraints that they're under.

Speaker A 00:17:25

If you can just stop and think about what's the real thing that's containing me from solving this problem and what if I were to remove it?

Speaker A 00:17:32

What if I got rid of that constraint?

Speaker B 00:17:34

Right?

Speaker A 00:17:34

So for the parent it would be the word no, right?

Speaker A 00:17:37

And how they want to control the day.

Speaker A 00:17:40

So just simply by lifting that constraint and making that a yes day, suddenly new possibilities kind of open up, and things that you were not thinking of prior suddenly become not only potential thoughts, but potential solutions.

Speaker C 00:17:55

And that's why I love these conversations, because you can, like, say, you can put your own take on it, can't you?

Speaker C 00:18:00

Whether it's a parent, whether you're in a classroom, whatever your sort of situation, just by understanding the concept of what you're trying to do, and then it being a sort of a joint journey between you and the people that you're sort of partnering with, so to speak.

Speaker C 00:18:13

I think it's a fascinating thing.

Speaker C 00:18:15

And tell me a little bit about how you got into this.

Speaker C 00:18:17

You know, you talked a little bit about that sort of earlier part of your career.

Speaker C 00:18:20

How did that sort of develop and morph into sort of having a newsletter about it and writing a book and it sort of being so much part of what you.

Speaker A 00:18:28

Yeah, dumafy was funny because it's been a journey for me to figure out, you know, where was I successful and where was I unsuccessful?

Speaker A 00:18:36

And my.

Speaker A 00:18:37

My.

Speaker A 00:18:38

My career has really been about building businesses, primarily digital businesses and media companies.

Speaker A 00:18:43

And every time I. I tried to do and invest in something that I thought was smart, it would fail.

Speaker A 00:18:50

And then I. I really noticed that when the idea felt dumb, like when I would first tell people about the idea, they go, oh, that's a terrible idea.

Speaker A 00:18:57

That's really dumb.

Speaker A 00:18:58

Why would you do that?

Speaker A 00:18:59

That was the thing that ended up becoming more successful.

Speaker A 00:19:03

And I started to.

Speaker A 00:19:04

To realize that for friends and colleagues who were venture capitalists, where they sort of had pattern recognition for themselves, where when they're investing in new companies, it was unclear to them which ones would do better, you know, the smart ideas or the dumb ideas.

Speaker A 00:19:21

And because they had seen so many winners come out of the dumb category, they just automatically made that a part of the mix of things that they were going to invest in.

Speaker A 00:19:31

But where I got to that point was I had a company that was doing pretty well, and I was really young, and I didn't know what I was doing.

Speaker A 00:19:39

And I think part of the success for that early on was I was just so naive, I didn't know any better.

Speaker A 00:19:44

Sort of that beginner's mindset idea.

Speaker A 00:19:47

And so I got into this mezzanine part of the company where I really needed it and wanted it to scale even further, but I felt like everything I was trying was just too clever.

Speaker A 00:19:57

And I was really thinking way too hard, and in my mind, was sort of using my smart brain rather than my dumb brain.

Speaker A 00:20:05

And I was out at dinner with a friend of mine who was in exactly the same situation.

Speaker A 00:20:12

And as we're chatting and we're grousing about our companies and how we wish that we could be doing better, and we started to talk about how.

Speaker A 00:20:20

So much fun.

Speaker A 00:20:20

When we started, he said one line to me that really made me laugh and then made me think is, he said, david says you will never meet an idiot who is not having a good time.

Speaker A 00:20:32

And I thought that was really funny.

Speaker A 00:20:34

And I didn't quite understand why, but I felt it was maybe more profound for me than I was giving it credit for.

Speaker A 00:20:41

So I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Speaker A 00:20:42

So all night I'm like, that's really.

Speaker A 00:20:44

I think that might be true.

Speaker A 00:20:46

And because I'm kind of a nerd at heart, I sort of made this chart for myself that is sort of like this quad, chart, right?

Speaker A 00:20:55

If you were to draw, like, a quad, and it had a gradient from dumb to smart and then dumb to smart, with the same XY axis.

Speaker A 00:21:04

And in this corner down in the lower left, where it's somebody who is dumb but knows that they're dumb, the archetype for that, in my mind was Forrest Gump.

Speaker A 00:21:14

So I put Forrest Gump in that box.

Speaker A 00:21:16

Then if you move over and you get to that place in the chart where it's somebody who's dumb but actually thinks they're smart.

Speaker A 00:21:24

And to me, that archetype was somebody like Homer Simpson.

Speaker A 00:21:27

It's like that classic kind of buffoon, certainly dunning Kruger's to the max.

Speaker A 00:21:34

But then you get to this category of someone who is smart but maybe uses dumb almost as a tool or a weapon in some way.

Speaker A 00:21:41

And to me, that was a character.

Speaker A 00:21:43

I don't know if you're familiar with this character called Columbo, which was.

Speaker A 00:21:47

Yeah, Columbo is just this really fantastic character who would walk into a room and always play the fool.

Speaker A 00:21:53

He would always want to be the most underestimated person in the room.

Speaker B 00:21:57

Right.

Speaker A 00:21:57

To be the type of person that would ask the dumb questions.

Speaker A 00:22:00

But it would often get the criminal to sort of soliloquy about their criming and then get a confession.

Speaker A 00:22:08

He was quite clever in the way that he used dumb.

Speaker A 00:22:11

But then you got to the upper right corner of this chart, and it was somebody who's really smart, exponentially smart, knows that they're smart.

Speaker A 00:22:19

And to me, that character was spock and when I'm looking at this chart, I've got Forrest Gump, Homer Simpson, Columbo and Spock.

Speaker A 00:22:29

And when I just took a glance, I realized that the most unhappy person on this chart is Spock.

Speaker A 00:22:36

That's a really miserable guy.

Speaker A 00:22:38

And.

Speaker A 00:22:38

And so my very first thought was, okay, if there's any lesson to learn from this, it's, you know, my goal in life is not to be Spock.

Speaker A 00:22:45

Just don't be that guy.

Speaker B 00:22:46

Right.

Speaker A 00:22:47

Essentially.

Speaker A 00:22:48

But then I got really curious about that Columbo character.

Speaker A 00:22:50

Like, that feels like that's the place where that's probably worth aiming.

Speaker A 00:22:55

Like, so many people are afraid of, you know, like their ego just really can't take, you know, looking dumb.

Speaker B 00:23:03

Right.

Speaker A 00:23:03

Asking dumb questions or coming up with.

Speaker A 00:23:05

With dumb ideas.

Speaker A 00:23:07

So it felt like that that's probably.

Speaker A 00:23:09

If I were to tack my sale someplace, I should probably go there because not everybody's doing it.

Speaker A 00:23:15

It's.

Speaker A 00:23:16

It's a place where there's probably going to be even more rich ideas because there's, you know, such few competition, right?

Speaker A 00:23:22

There aren't very many people willing to.

Speaker A 00:23:24

To go there.

Speaker A 00:23:25

So that was sort of the genesis of it.

Speaker A 00:23:27

And then I started merchandising it a little bit more because this was just how I operated, like, what I was going to invest in, how I was going to spend my time.

Speaker A 00:23:34

Everything was going to be really kind of in that veil.

Speaker A 00:23:38

And I had a conversation with my daughter once she got older, and she sort of knew this methodology.

Speaker A 00:23:44

I had always collected all of these stories to prove that dumb ideas have always been around us and they've always created breakthroughs.

Speaker A 00:23:52

And she said, you know, I'm Gen Z and I'm also a female.

Speaker A 00:23:59

So, you know, when I walk into any room with an adult, you know, anything that comes out of my mouth is considered dumb.

Speaker A 00:24:06

And she says, I think, like, these stories and like these weird little mental models that you have are pretty interesting for me because it gives me confidence when I'm speaking with someone, all right, that's.

Speaker A 00:24:17

That's older than me.

Speaker A 00:24:17

It gives me the confidence to know that the ideas I have are potentially valid.

Speaker A 00:24:22

You know, they're not necessarily wrong just because.

Speaker B 00:24:25

Right.

Speaker A 00:24:25

This person might think that they're dumb.

Speaker A 00:24:27

I thought that was really, really interesting.

Speaker A 00:24:30

And it hadn't dawned on me that it would help her in that way.

Speaker A 00:24:34

So I started really in earnest to sort of write these down for other people to use.

Speaker A 00:24:40

And I would give these talks at, like, Art Directors Club in New York, and we'd sort of have these conversations about how you could use dumb, right.

Speaker A 00:24:47

Essentially for your businesses or for.

Speaker B 00:24:50

Right.

Speaker A 00:24:50

Any type of solution set that you're trying to, to build.

Speaker C 00:24:54

And I think that's such an amazing insight because not only are you talking about, like you said, about the characters in the way of doing it, but for that sort of correlation between the fact that no matter what I think I understand that I'm being perceived like this just because I'm a woman, I guess.

Speaker C 00:25:10

And you could probably apply that to different social, economic statuses, whatever the circumstances are.

Speaker C 00:25:18

And then all of a sudden you've got that kind of, this is what the world perceives I'm going to be like, or what I'm going to say, or what all of these things are going to be part of my personality before I've even asked a question, let alone whether it's meant to be dumb or not.

Speaker C 00:25:31

And to understand that to the point where you can say, take the ego right out of it and understand yourself and your environment enough to make the most of that is an absolutely fascinating place to go.

Speaker C 00:25:41

And yeah, and you know, hats off to your daughter to sort of be so aware of all of that, but obviously must get that from you as well.

Speaker A 00:25:49

It's funny because you feel like even though you know it, right.

Speaker A 00:25:53

It's, it's, it's something that's really hard to practice.

Speaker A 00:25:57

So I, I feel like there's, you know, got to be some sort of support group, right.

Speaker A 00:26:02

In some way for folks and so dumb.

Speaker A 00:26:04

Ify really is sort of that support group that says, hey, here, here are models that have been tried.

Speaker A 00:26:08

Here are people who have been really successful in the past with applying what would seem like dumb ideas to a really interesting problem.

Speaker A 00:26:16

But then there's also just tools.

Speaker A 00:26:19

Of course, you're going to walk into a room and all those anxieties that you would typically have for asking a dumb question, they're just kind of always going to be there.

Speaker A 00:26:27

However, you can really start to sedate those over time with more confidence that you're able to come into the room knowing that that's the way you're going to be perceived.

Speaker A 00:26:37

But then also have the confidence that, you know, dumb ideas have always moved and challenged.

Speaker B 00:26:42

Right.

Speaker A 00:26:42

Ideas in the past.

Speaker A 00:26:44

And there are also just ways for you to present those ideas in ways that, you know, can sort of help your cause.

Speaker B 00:26:51

Right.

Speaker A 00:26:51

In some way.

Speaker A 00:26:52

So sort of learning sort of those basket of tools I think is kind of important and can be really useful.

Speaker C 00:26:58

And so how have you then structured this in terms of the book, Is it examples of all these things?

Speaker C 00:27:04

Have you got a sort of a structure of how you sort of get through all them all and how does that work?

Speaker A 00:27:09

Yeah, the structure of the book is really kind of in three parts.

Speaker A 00:27:11

The first part is really an understanding what I mean by dumb, because I think there's a lot of misinterpretation around dumb, because again, it's not about lowering your iq.

Speaker A 00:27:22

It's really about realizing that your curiosity and your need to understand can sometimes feel very dumb to you.

Speaker A 00:27:31

And that there are ideas that you have that feel incredibly dumb and you're not offering them.

Speaker A 00:27:37

And when you don't say the thing, that thing can never happen.

Speaker A 00:27:40

So it's really just trying to set up the problem that happens when you're not using that part of your brain, so to speak.

Speaker A 00:27:48

And then the second part then really becomes about how do you actually.

Speaker B 00:27:55

How.

Speaker A 00:27:55

Do you stand these ideas up in a way that could be successful?

Speaker A 00:27:58

So once you have a dumb idea, it doesn't mean it's a good idea or a bad idea, right?

Speaker A 00:28:03

It's just simply a dumb idea.

Speaker A 00:28:05

So how do you actually evaluate whether or not it's good or not?

Speaker A 00:28:08

And so there's sort of like a way to sort of think that, think that through.

Speaker A 00:28:12

And then the third part is really around all these wonderful rich stories of people who had incredibly dumb ideas and brought them to life.

Speaker A 00:28:21

And you know, it stretches back like 500 years, you know, of just really dumb ideas.

Speaker A 00:28:27

Some that we take for granted today.

Speaker A 00:28:29

Like the guy that taught us to wash our hands, right?

Speaker A 00:28:33

If you're a surgeon and you're going to go from opening a chest cavity to delivering a baby, maybe you should wash your hands in between.

Speaker A 00:28:40

That was seen as a crazy dumb idea.

Speaker A 00:28:44

And the guy that came up with that, noticing these nurses essentially that were having less death rates than the doctors.

Speaker A 00:28:55

But he also had this notion that there were these little microbial things that were on our hands, which we now know as bacteria.

Speaker A 00:29:03

But they thought he was so crazy he was actually put in an insane asylum for washing your hands.

Speaker A 00:29:09

I always find that really interesting.

Speaker A 00:29:11

But the structure of that is really just to give people confidence.

Speaker A 00:29:15

It takes stories from 500 years ago all the way up to present day, you know, to give you confidence that, that these stories are real and, and they apply to real things, real life and real problems.

Speaker C 00:29:28

And I think my biggest takeaway of all of this is just the sense that so much of what we put emotion to and a pre conceived idea of like say good or bad or dumb or clever or whatever it happens to be when it just becomes a sort of a zero level or it just is what it is.

Speaker C 00:29:46

It kind of takes away so much of that baggage, doesn't it?

Speaker C 00:29:48

Like you're saying it just back to that freedom again of just do what you do, ask what you ask, be the way that you are.

Speaker C 00:29:54

And then once that emotion disappears, then you're in, you're in such a great shape to walk into whatever those opportunities are.

Speaker C 00:30:02

And like I say, good, bad or indifferent, whatever those outcomes are.

Speaker A 00:30:05

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A 00:30:06

At least you've offered something.

Speaker B 00:30:08

Right?

Speaker A 00:30:08

Like it's, it's.

Speaker A 00:30:09

I think it's, it's a terrible idea to not offer ideas.

Speaker A 00:30:11

Right.

Speaker A 00:30:12

You should at least be offering something and then the next step is really how do you stand it up quickly so that you can test it?

Speaker A 00:30:18

That's really where things become.

Speaker A 00:30:20

Pass.

Speaker A 00:30:20

Fail very quickly.

Speaker A 00:30:22

Which I think to some degree, I think our culture has maybe gotten a little bit better with at least the way that we frame failure now, which can sound kind of like fail culture has become kind of a Silicon Valley thing.

Speaker A 00:30:37

And while that might sound terrible because all things Silicon Valley feel like they're very terrible now, but this idea that you should fail quickly because failure is really just information, essentially, the quicker you can get to that, the better.

Speaker A 00:30:52

And that there are sort of reward structures around failure now, which I don't remember that being available to me when I was younger.

Speaker A 00:30:59

So I applaud at least that effort to bring that into frame.

Speaker A 00:31:03

I think design thinking has also done a really good job of, of helping people to understand how to, how to.

Speaker A 00:31:10

How to sort of come up with solution sets and to, and to at least carve out room for dumb questions, in my opinion, design thinking doesn't spend enough time in that, in that realm of what they've built.

Speaker A 00:31:22

But at least, you know, at least they have it incorporated.

Speaker C 00:31:25

Yeah, and I think that's where these conversations are so valuable because whether, you know, we're sort of coming through it from an education point of view, whether you're a teacher, parents, mentor and students, but like I say, if you're coming at it from a scientific background, if you're coming at it from anywhere, I guess in, in life, you're going to hear it differently, you're going to see it differently, you're sharing ideas across different ways of living, different countries, different outlooks.

Speaker C 00:31:50

And I think understanding how that is and how you can pick those things and bring them into your existence and into your world, that has to Be a positive thing.

Speaker C 00:31:59

And I think when it's as a concept in a way and a way of being able to work into it in the way that you're talking about in such a really sort of easy.

Speaker C 00:32:10

I guess, in some way or straightforward way, the complexities, as you've explained, becomes really fascinating beyond that.

Speaker C 00:32:16

But it kind of gives people that.

Speaker C 00:32:18

That first in.

Speaker C 00:32:20

In.

Speaker C 00:32:20

In a way that's sort of easy to understand and opens that journey for them.

Speaker A 00:32:25

Yeah, I mean, I look at dumb thinking in this way.

Speaker A 00:32:28

I think everybody is capable of being dumb in the same way that you might think I'm not capable of being smart.

Speaker A 00:32:34

I'll bet you think you have the capability of being dumb.

Speaker A 00:32:38

If that's true, then your ability to really shape that and make that really useful for yourself, it's incumbent upon you to learn how to do that.

Speaker A 00:32:48

But I feel like the access point for it is not ridiculous.

Speaker A 00:32:54

It's not something that only 1% of the population can achieve.

Speaker A 00:33:00

Everybody has the ability to sort of recognize dumb thinking for what it is and then to apply it.

Speaker C 00:33:07

And I think also the fact that even when you think you've mastered one thing, there's a whole nother area that you've got no idea about.

Speaker C 00:33:13

You know, I'm a musician.

Speaker C 00:33:15

I've done the 10,000 hours.

Speaker C 00:33:16

I've been a professional for 25 years or more.

Speaker C 00:33:18

But yet you asked me to screw something into a wall.

Speaker C 00:33:21

And even now I need to ask myself those dumb questions.

Speaker C 00:33:24

So whatever that happens to be, there's always one of those just literally one thought process away.

Speaker A 00:33:30

That's really funny.

Speaker A 00:33:31

And something to consider if it's true that you're really terrible at nailing things to the wall or there's some sort of problem.

Speaker A 00:33:37

And if you looked at that and said, how could I solve that in a very dumb way, I'll bet you come up with some really unique solutions that somebody who really knows how to do that would never be able to do.

Speaker A 00:33:50

That might be a fun thing to solve for yourself.

Speaker A 00:33:52

That's funny.

Speaker C 00:33:53

I think there's a podcast series there separate to this, but I can imagine so many different stories from people doing that.

Speaker A 00:33:59

Fantastic.

Speaker C 00:34:01

So we talked about all the learning experience, this and the kind of, the mindset of it.

Speaker C 00:34:06

Is there an education experience that you remember or a teacher that you remember that sort of had.

Speaker C 00:34:11

Had an impact?

Speaker C 00:34:12

And how does that maybe sort of also sort of tie into what we've been talking about today?

Speaker A 00:34:17

Yeah, I've had all sorts of really interesting teachers, and I think when I started school, I started in a Montessori kind of program, which I really liked, by the way.

Speaker A 00:34:27

I think that program is fantastic.

Speaker A 00:34:29

And then after third grade, they sort of shut that down.

Speaker A 00:34:33

But when I got to college, I actually went to a music school.

Speaker A 00:34:36

I went to a conservatory, and I was a composition major with a piano emphasis.

Speaker A 00:34:42

And we were lucky enough to meet John Cage, and he came to sort of teach the students there.

Speaker A 00:34:49

He's a composer who's quite well known for being a chance composer, super interesting person.

Speaker A 00:34:56

And he did not teach us music, did not teach us anything related to music that we thought of at the time.

Speaker A 00:35:02

We're 19 years old, and the one thing we knew about him was that he loved to go mushroom hunting.

Speaker A 00:35:07

So you would go mushroom hunting, and then he would sit you in front of a tree and he would say, I want you to look at this tree.

Speaker A 00:35:14

And then the moment that you get bored, I want you to understand how long it took you to get bored.

Speaker A 00:35:19

And then I want you to sit in front of this tree for double the time that it took you to get bored.

Speaker A 00:35:24

And that was a really interesting, unique experience, because at 19 years old, it had never dawned on me that there is no such thing as boredom.

Speaker A 00:35:35

Like where your mind tends to go in those types of states are really interesting.

Speaker A 00:35:39

And I guess it was sort of a way of teaching mindfulness in ways that we couldn't quite understand back then.

Speaker B 00:35:46

But.

Speaker A 00:35:50

I really take that to heart because I think there's something really interesting in being able to sit with your mind in that way, and it becomes sort of a creative space.

Speaker A 00:35:59

And for some people, to be alone in your own thoughts can be quite scary.

Speaker A 00:36:03

But I think being able to do that more than is typically allowed, what with iPhones and iPads and, like, we're just constantly being mediated, right?

Speaker A 00:36:14

Always.

Speaker A 00:36:15

So to be able to sort of sit in this world of boredom, to be able to use it as a tool in some way, to hear your own thoughts, to hear the weird things that might be going through your brain, there tends to be real things for you to apply.

Speaker A 00:36:29

And when you're constantly mediated by screens or anything else that distracts you during the day, you're never going to get to those.

Speaker A 00:36:34

So that was pretty valuable.

Speaker C 00:36:36

And I love the stories of people, especially people that people will know, or you expect, let's say, your learning process to be a certain thing you hear.

Speaker C 00:36:45

I've gone to study this.

Speaker C 00:36:47

I've got a famous composer that's helping me do that.

Speaker C 00:36:50

And then, like you say, the learning Experience you have, the thing that you take away is not what people would necessarily expect.

Speaker C 00:36:56

And I love that because I think it's the.

Speaker C 00:36:58

It's the insights, the genius, the.

Speaker C 00:37:01

The understanding that the world isn't just about.

Speaker C 00:37:03

Now I'm going to teach you where to put an A on the stave.

Speaker C 00:37:05

You know, how it's going to.

Speaker C 00:37:07

That's going to work is a fascinating one.

Speaker C 00:37:09

And that goes across all different areas of life.

Speaker C 00:37:11

I think it's true.

Speaker A 00:37:12

I think people really misunderstand what creativity is, where it comes from and how it's applied.

Speaker A 00:37:19

You know, I think we have so many different stories that sort of think that it's this, you know, lightning bolt that strikes on high right there.

Speaker A 00:37:26

It's just.

Speaker A 00:37:27

It's fascinating to me that most creativity comes from people trying to copy other people, but they're so bad at copying that they could only be themselves and they create something new.

Speaker A 00:37:36

The Beatles always come to mind to me for that as an anecdote, because, you know, here you have, obviously, some young guys that have started a band.

Speaker A 00:37:43

They really want to sound like American black blues musicians, but they're so terrible at it, they end up sounding like the Beatles.

Speaker B 00:37:49

Right.

Speaker A 00:37:49

And change the world.

Speaker B 00:37:50

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:37:51

So, you know, we're.

Speaker A 00:37:52

We're just.

Speaker A 00:37:52

We're filled with stuff like that and I think we just sort of misconstrue.

Speaker B 00:37:57

Right.

Speaker A 00:37:58

How really interesting things come about.

Speaker C 00:38:01

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker C 00:38:02

It's a great story.

Speaker C 00:38:04

Is there a piece of advice that you've been given that you'd like to share or even some advice that you might give your younger self now, looking back?

Speaker A 00:38:12

Well, to be honest, the stuff that we talked about earlier with my friend Adi when we were at dinner, like, I carry that with me every day.

Speaker A 00:38:19

Just simply, you know, you will never meet an idiot who isn't having a good time.

Speaker A 00:38:24

And that's sort of a constant refrain that I come back to because in those moments where you think, you know, you're.

Speaker A 00:38:30

You're trying to be too smart, you're probably being too clever, and if I just stop myself, get out of that and realize how miserable I am when I'm in that state to begin with, if I realize, like, you know, oh, like I'm going to have a much better time.

Speaker B 00:38:44

Right.

Speaker A 00:38:44

Like I'm always going to have a good time when I kind of shift to this state of mind.

Speaker B 00:38:47

Right.

Speaker A 00:38:48

Essentially.

Speaker A 00:38:48

And I don't think Adi really meant it in that way, but that's the way I've chosen to apply it.

Speaker A 00:38:53

And I would tell that to myself, my younger self, any day of the week.

Speaker C 00:38:58

Yeah, love that.

Speaker C 00:38:59

And is there a resource you'd like to share?

Speaker C 00:39:01

And this can be professional, personal, and anything from a video, song, film, book, podcast.

Speaker C 00:39:06

But, yeah, something's happening.

Speaker A 00:39:07

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A 00:39:08

Well, one resource for people listening would be go to david-carson.com which is where you could sign up for Demofi.

Speaker A 00:39:15

And I have some of the mental models, which is a really great resource for demofi.

Speaker A 00:39:22

But I think in terms of things that I really like to read, I read really weird stuff for the most part.

Speaker A 00:39:29

So I'm always really looking for different ways that people have looked at the world.

Speaker A 00:39:35

There's actually a book here.

Speaker A 00:39:37

I'll actually pull this one out.

Speaker A 00:39:39

This is the Weirdest People in the world, essentially.

Speaker A 00:39:43

And I think the idea of this is how the west became psychologically peculiar and particularly prosperous.

Speaker A 00:39:50

The book is really a fun resource to really think about how culture shifts and how real things happen.

Speaker A 00:40:00

And it's a very unique take on how the world works.

Speaker A 00:40:04

That's a great one.

Speaker A 00:40:05

I'm really into that one.

Speaker C 00:40:06

I love it.

Speaker C 00:40:07

Now, obviously, the acronym FIRE is important to us, and by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment.

Speaker C 00:40:15

What is it that strikes you when you see that either as a collection of words or any one of those sort of popping out at you?

Speaker A 00:40:23

Feedback really hits me a lot like the feedback and inspiration quite a bit.

Speaker A 00:40:27

So, like, when I think about demofy, the entire world is essentially feedback, right for you.

Speaker A 00:40:32

And when you come up with a dumb idea, you want to put it out in the world to get instant feedback.

Speaker A 00:40:38

The inspiration that comes out of that is usually pretty interesting.

Speaker A 00:40:42

You'll surprise yourself once you get those dumb ideas out.

Speaker A 00:40:46

But then there are that problematic points where either it's not working or it's failing, or that thing creeps back up into your brain where you're thinking that you cannot share those dumb ideas or ask that dumb question.

Speaker A 00:40:58

So the ability to actually be incredibly resilient certainly gives you at least the.

Speaker A 00:41:04

The operations to empower yourself to.

Speaker A 00:41:07

To keep doing it.

Speaker A 00:41:08

So it's a great acronym.

Speaker C 00:41:09

Great, yeah.

Speaker C 00:41:10

I love that.

Speaker C 00:41:10

Thanks so much for that.

Speaker C 00:41:11

And I think it's.

Speaker C 00:41:12

I think I love hearing the different people's perceptions of what that is and how it relates to them.

Speaker C 00:41:17

And I think that's why these things are often so powerful, because it's understanding in the context rather than it.

Speaker C 00:41:23

It means this across the globe, so to speak.

Speaker C 00:41:26

And I think it's a really important takeaway for people because, like, you Said in the same way as what we've been talking about in terms of sort of dumb questions and how you perceive yourself to be in those circles.

Speaker C 00:41:35

It's course related to you and what your perception is and the people that you're meeting and who you're involved in as well.

Speaker C 00:41:41

So I think, yeah, those sort of relationships are kind of a really sort of key thing.

Speaker A 00:41:46

It's kind of a nice recipe.

Speaker A 00:41:47

You know, you can throw lots of different ingredients right at things, but if you've got a nice recipe and a way to sort of combine those things, you can.

Speaker A 00:41:53

You can always make something, you know, pretty tasty.

Speaker C 00:41:55

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker C 00:41:56

Yeah.

Speaker C 00:41:57

And it's a great.

Speaker C 00:41:57

It's a great way to wrap up, actually, that.

Speaker C 00:41:59

Because I love that sense of.

Speaker C 00:42:00

Sometimes, like I say, you've got everything marked out from the ingredients to the method and all of that, and you get something fantastic, but.

Speaker C 00:42:06

But then you don't quite have one thing or you just sort of.

Speaker C 00:42:09

I'm just going to go a little bit rogue for something and you create a whole new dish.

Speaker C 00:42:13

It becomes your favorite one that you would have never have done had you been so sort of focused on making sure that it's right.

Speaker C 00:42:18

And I think that kind of probably epitomizes everything we've spoken about today.

Speaker A 00:42:21

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker A 00:42:22

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:42:23

Just always delight in the rogue.

Speaker A 00:42:24

Go rogue.

Speaker C 00:42:25

Brilliant.

Speaker C 00:42:26

Well, there we are.

Speaker C 00:42:26

David, thank you so much.

Speaker C 00:42:27

It's been brilliant chatting to you.

Speaker C 00:42:29

Thanks so much for all the work that you're doing and opening up our.

Speaker C 00:42:32

Certainly my mind and the world that we're doing.

Speaker C 00:42:34

And you mentioned the website there.

Speaker C 00:42:36

We'll make sure that we have that in the show notes as.

Speaker C 00:42:38

So people can click straight through and.

Speaker C 00:42:40

Yeah, look forward to being able to share that again.

Speaker A 00:42:44

Marvelous.

Speaker A 00:42:44

Love it.

Speaker A 00:42:45

Thank you.

Speaker A 00:42:45

This is a really fun conversation.

Speaker C 00:42:47

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.