For Dyslexic Parents: A wordless picture book making StoryTime fun – Silent Snow

Kirsty Heap 00:00:40

7 years old and you're being told your life is going to be hard, that it's no wonder. I felt like it was literally a weight around me. I didn't understand it. No. But nobody explained the positives. And, you know, I'm really thankful for my mum pushing for me to go and get the diagnosis because she was the one that noticed that I was different from my brother and sister who are 10 and eight years older than me. So I'm really pleased she did that. But there wasn't the knowledge or the expertise around the positive element of dyslexia. So when I shared with her years later about the positive side, she was even surprised about it. So school was hard. I had additional special dyslexic lessons. Really helpful. However, they were always conducted in the lunch break. Not helpful because now I'm going from lesson to lesson. I just want to run around. Please let me have some freedom. No, I've got to sit and do my dyslexic lessons. So that was a frustration of it.

Mark Taylor 00:01:49

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Kirsty Heap is an executive coach, keynote speaker and neurodiversity advocate who helps individuals and organisations create environments where people can truly thrive. Kirsty is the author of Silence no. A wordless picture book that celebrates imagination and connection in storytelling. Now Kirsty takes us on the journey of her own experience of reading bedtime stories to her children as a dyslexic parent. Now, she used to find reading to her children difficult and when she stumbled over words, she felt like she was letting them down. But instead of giving up, she started making up her own stories based on their lives and the little adventures they had. Now, each page is filled with beautiful illustrations to spark your imagination, making story time a fun, personal and shared experience. We discussed what being at school was like as a neurodivergent child and the skills that Kirsty developed to create a life based on her own terms. Now, this understanding supported the environment she wanted to create for her own children's learning and now influences her work with coaching clients. Hi Kirsty, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. I'm really excited about the the Silent Snow. I'm really excited about your experience in terms of being a parent and being dyslexic and actually how that can really support people, I think, who find themselves in that situation. But they kind of assume things need to look a certain way, whether that's bedtime story reading or just generally sort of communicating as well. And. And obviously the work that you're able to do to support people more generally. So, yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Kirsty Heap 00:03:36

Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me, Mark.

Mark Taylor 00:03:38

So can we start with the book? Because it's absolutely fascinating where you. Where it kind of developed from and where it came from. And it's one thing to think this is a good idea, it's another to actually build, to create it and sort of it into the world.

Kirsty Heap 00:03:50

Tell me about it. And it takes a lot of kind of courage to do that. So it actually stems from when I was, when I was a parent. I'm still a parent, but when my kids were younger, I still remember doing bedtime story with them. And one of my children delightfully corrected me because I read a word wrong in the book. Now that's fine. She was probably about six and she was. I can't even remember exactly what the word was, but it was like, yo, mum. That doesn't say horrid, that says horrendous. That. Not that she would have understood. It shattered my confidence in the sense of my ability to read to my children. I felt like a complete failure. So I just shut the book and I said, that's it. Mummy's no longer going to read bedtime stories. And I can get. I used to feel a very heavy weight with my dyslexia and that was one of those moments where it really pulled me down and I felt a complete failure as a parent, thought, oh my goodness, I can't do this. And I was a single parent at the time. And I thought, come on, Kirsty, think about this, think about this. Your brain works in an amazing way with creativity, with imagination. So lean into it. So a couple of nights went where we had no bedtime stories and then I sat down, I said, right, kids, lights out. Come on, it's bedtime. Mommy's going to create a story. And I just did it off my imagination and really trusted myself. And it took the odd turn here and there and I realized they really enjoyed it, but it also meant that it could snuggle down into their pillows as well. And it was creating that kind of soft delight environment. So that's where it all stemmed from. My daughter is 25. I don't read to her in my normal way of my creative stories that often anymore. So fast forward, we're talking probably in the last five years. So she would have been about 20. I was out for a walk with her and one of her brothers and we were talking about this and it was my son that said, do you remember, Mum, when you used to make those stories up and it often had a collie dog in it and you often used to include bits about school, We've realized in this. And I was like, huh? And they just said, I just used to really love it. Used to really love them. They were totally unique. We could get involved in them, we could shape them a bit. And then that got the old creative sparks flying again. And I was like, wow, I didn't realize how powerful they had been with them. And then it got me thinking, right, actually, I know I'm not the only person like me. So there are others like me that have found that nervousness around bedtime and found that stressful. How could I make this easier? And that's when it was literally I was out walking and it was like a light bulb that went, hang on a second. If you can create the images you have in your head onto paper, therefore other people can then bring those stories to life as well. So that is where it stems from. And I remember talking to an illustrator and they went, yeah, yeah, just send me the words and I'll create the pictures. I went, oh, love, no, it doesn't work like that. I explained the concept and she was like, right. And I voice noted her, the illustrations, the pictures I had in my head, to the absolute detail. And she said, I cannot believe the detail you've described. I can now literally bring that vision to life. And that's what we did. And I was really nervous about doing it. Really nervous. I've never bought a book out in all my life. I don't know how to do that. I don't know if other people are really going to understand it and get it. And it's really difficult to explain it in words about the concept. You know, explaining it verbally is much easier. So the whole idea is you have the illustrations. So the book is Silent Snow and you will have an illustration. Let me just open it. So. Oh, doesn't help when you've got a blurred background on, but you'll have an illustration where then you create the story off it. So on the first illustration, there is a child looking out of the window. Now, that child can have any name, that child can be any sex, that child could be staying in any location. The beauty is you create off your mind. The story could. Can follow the illustrations, but the story can come outside the book as well. So I've had people share with me how they've been able to discuss maybe someone going into hospital through the book because maybe that individual is staying with their grandparents because Daddy's in hospital. So it lends itself in so many ways. And, you know, I've got five kids and two of them have partners where British is their second language, this book. Therefore, when they have children, they're not having them yet, I believe, but when they do, they can actually read and create the stories from the same book in their own national language. And I just think that is beautiful. So then that made me go, oh, let me make sure I explain it in different languages. So I tapped into those people and said, right, explain the book in your national language so then other people can understand it as well. And I have no shame in saying, mark, when I got my first copy of that, I cried. I'm sure it was just that, holy Maloney, I've done this. It wasn't about any of the book sales or anything. It was about believing in myself to bring a vision to life in an area that I know nothing about. And I'm blooming did it, and I'm blooming proud of myself for doing it.

Mark Taylor 00:09:48

I absolutely love it. And I'll tell you the thing that also struck me, which is, I guess the other side of this is the fact that I used to love the bedtime story reading. And my kids are older now as well. The youngest one has just gone to university, so I can remember the historical side of it, like you say, and still that feeling is incredibly strong. But what I don't have is the confidence to have the creativity to do a story off my own head. You know, you hear some people that are like, oh, yeah, I didn't want to read to my kids, but I just. Every time I'd sit down and I'd make up a story, there's no way I could do that off the top of my head. I need. I need the book. I need the thing to follow. So this just fits so beautifully. Because if I'd had this book, then I could probably do it in a much easier way because like you say, I've got the. I've got the thing in front of me that sparks those ideas. I can explain it. We can share it together. It's our group story. Rather than just me having to think, what did I do today? Or how does this fit in with what we're doing currently or whatever, because I'd overthink it rather than just have that immediate creativity. So I absolutely love it from both of those angles and just. I can just see how the freedom of it once you sort of. You sort of let the. The stabilizers off. As in, I need to make it look like this just suddenly comes into.

Kirsty Heap 00:10:56

Life totally and it gives you that foundation. And I'm a really visual person. So as you were saying that, I was thinking, thinking of a Christmas tree and I was like, it's as if you've got the tree there, that is your foundation and then the creativity is putting those decorations onto it and it's using that and even flipping it from the aspect of. So I was diagnosed with my dyslexia when I was seven, so I've always known I'm dyslexic now. I remember my mum reading stories to me and as much as I loved her reading them to me, I also used to get really frustrated because I would be looking at the words and thinking, I. I don't understand what that says. I don't know what she's reading. So as much as it was a lovely experience in some ways, actually, if I was looking at it, I didn't enjoy it. So I needed to have my eyes closed. So whereas this. There are no words, therefore that child isn't going to feel that residence either from it.

Mark Taylor 00:11:54

And in terms of the. The descriptions you did when you started, so you were talking to the illustrator and that kind of thing, I love the vividness of that because it's very easy to sort of try to do that. But I would imagine, like you said, to get that detail, if you're trying to get detailed, is hard to begin with. But if you're just literally being able to paint that picture verbally, which I guess is just a skill that you have because of the way that you've. You've developed over life, having had this lecture and sort of being able to communicate in the. In the way that works for you, rather than a way that you're supposed to in the vertical. Then. Yeah, then I can really see that, how that seems amazing for someone who doesn't think in that particular way.

Kirsty Heap 00:12:34

Oh, totally. Because it was little things like there needs to be a dolly, but she needs to be facing face first. You can't see her first on the ground. She also needs to have half a leg. So it was all these small things. There needs to be a spider on this side of the page. There needs to be xyz. Everything's just into the detail. And in my experience, I think it made the illustrator's job easier because she was able to truly understand where I was coming from. And I looked at other books and go and went. This is the sort of imagery I'm creating in my head now. This is where we kind of bring it to life. So, yeah, yeah, I love the experience of doing it. And there is a blue bear on the front page. And blue bear links to my child Finnegan, who is also dyslexic. I was going to say it was a faux papa on there because apparently, according to the others, he's my favorite. He's not, because I don't have favorites, but he is my only diagnosed neurodivergent child. But it does mean it's paved the way for another four books, one for each of. One of their, you know, one for each of my children, where I can maybe have their special toy in there. That would be my ideal. So the next goal is going to be to get a publishing deal, obviously.

Mark Taylor 00:13:51

Exactly. And then. And then by the time you've got to that stage, like I say, with five children, there may be a grandchild or something in the way, and then, you know, you've opened up a whole new kind of series before. Before that's happened. Maybe don't point them in my direction if they hear this before they've decided that's a good idea. But, yeah, I love that.

Kirsty Heap 00:14:09

Yeah, no, exactly.

Mark Taylor 00:14:12

So take me into sort of the idea of how dyslexia has really kind of, I want to say, impacted, because I think the problem that we often have in education now is that this is the way it's supposed to look. Here are all the guidelines, here's the curriculum, here's how we're going to learn, which is fine for the. Whatever that middle percentage of people who just seem to get it. And it's all easy. And I don't really need to think about it two ways, either end of that spectrum. It's just really hard and it's not very supportive and it's not really helping anybody, let alone if you happen to have a specific part of your learning which needs extra support in a different kind of way. So can you just sort of take me through what your experience was when you were younger as a. As a. As a student, and what that felt like, and what maybe knowing what you know now with the experience you've got, maybe the technology that's around now would have made a bigger difference, and then how that sort of implements your Influences what? You would sort of speak to people about it now?

Kirsty Heap 00:15:10

Absolutely. So I'm in my late 40s and so when I was diagnosed, that was in the early 80s and it was very much. I still remember it being explained to me as, you're going to struggle, life's going to be hard. You're going to find reading, writing a challenge. Exams aren't going to be for you. And overall, yeah, life's going to be hard. Now, go back to school. Seven years old and you're being told your life is going to be hard. That it's no wonder. I felt like it was literally a weight around me. I didn't understand it. No. But nobody explained the positives and, you know, I'm really thankful for my mum pushing for me to go and get the diagnosis because she was the one that noticed that I was different from my brother and sister, who are 10 and eight years older than me. So I'm really pleased she did that. But there wasn't the knowledge or the expertise around the positive element of dyslexia. So when I shared with her years later about the positive side, she was even surprised about it. So school was hard. I had additional special dyslexic lessons. Really helpful. However, they were always conducted in the lunch break. Not helpful because now I'm going from lesson to lesson. I just want to run around. Please let me have some freedom. No, I've got to sit and do my dyslexic lessons. So that was a frustration of it. I. I was privately educated and again, for me, I was very aware that my parents were paying for my education and I wanted to fit in with all my peers. I. A lot of teachers would say, oh, Kirsty just needs to do half an hour of the work. That was like the recommended time for that piece of work. Not a chance. Not a chance am I going to do 30 minutes and hand three lines in compared to Annabelle next door, who's gonna do a page and a half? No way. No way. That wasn't going to happen. So I worked extremely hard. I did a lot more hours than what other people did. I, again, I have no shame. I mess around a bit in class, was quite often told, kirsty, come back into the room, concentrate. The things I know now, actually, I look up to my left and often look out the window when I'm processing. So I was concentrating hard in that lesson. It's just the teachers didn't understand that. And the education did help me create structures or strategies very early on around organisation and Being prepared. I still lay my clothes out the night before, 48 years old. And that is one of my key strategies to help with that executive functioning. So having a uniform really helped me. Laying it out the night before really helped me. So there were key bits of it. But yeah, school was, to be honest, pretty hard to say the least. I then went to sixth form college. I really wanted to do A levels and then was advised maybe actually doing something like a GMV Q would be better because I'm dyslexic. So, you know, let's be sensible here. That cutting of the wings, that limitation and when you're so impressive at that, impressionable at that age, you. You trust the people in those roles. So I did a GMVQ in leisure and tourism. I had no interest in it. I was the first year that did it. Did I use my creativity? Yes, to the point. We were a group of four. Probably shouldn't disclose this, but I will. We handed over our pieces of coursework. So actually I probably only did a quarter of the course because the other three people did the other. And we would just tailor it and tweak it and reput our name on it. We did tell them at the end of the year that's what we did. So they did change how they had done it. But again, I was using my creativity to get around things and in the workplace I honestly, Mark, I honestly thought that the workplace was, we're free of this thing, it's never going to cause any problem. And then it was like a ton of bricks again going, oh, oh. It still kind of causes issues in the workplace. Brilliant. So I didn't disclose my dyslexia in the workplace until I was actually a senior leaders to. I was like at the top of my level. The CEO knew and then I felt safe. It shouldn't be like that. And that change was actually when I had my second. When I had my second child to my son and he knows I say this, he might as well come out waving a dyslexic and a ADHD flag. It's so clear he was not going to suffer like I did. That mummy bear instinct came out. But also I realized that actually for me to protect him, I had to take a good long hard look at the person and the reflection that was looking back at me and I had to go and look at this dyslexia thing that I knew nothing about and really learn it and understand it. And that was hard.

Mark Taylor 00:20:23

I can imagine. So there are a couple of things there that I want to just pick up on. You sort of said that you sort of worked even harder to make sure that you produce maybe the same amount of work, given it would just take you longer to do that. That solves the immediate issue that you have, which is you want to hand in the same amount of work. It completely ruins, like you say, the amount of time and the fact you had to do things in lunchtime and all of that kind of thing. Knowing what you know now, is there a way that it could have been done different? I know it's easy looking back in that kind of thing, but just the way that you were able to do a piece of work, a way that you could actually work within the system that you're in, because, I mean, in an ideal world it would look very different. In schools would look very different as well.

Kirsty Heap 00:21:05

Yes, but.

Mark Taylor 00:21:05

But that being said, knowing what you know now in that particular system, if you had the flexibility to say, right, these are your strengths, as long as you can still learn what's needed to be learned over the course of this unit topic, term year, whatever it happens to be, what could have been done differently and what would you have sort of put in place, which would have sort of lent into your strengths and not sort of made it as any more difficult than it needed to be.

Kirsty Heap 00:21:31

So there's definitely a few things. Dictation software, 100%. If I'd learned how to use dictation software and I was younger, that would have made a real difference. I also learned how to touch type when I was about 15, 16. It is a great skill, but I wish I'd learned that earlier because that would have been able to help me. Even things like having standing desks or having a classroom where I could have stood rather than sat, that would have helped me. Being able to actually position things in a mind map way and then be able to verbally explain maybe something rather than me having to write it. Even if I had to record myself explaining a situation within history or geography and the clouds and the formation of them, that that would have led much more into my natural style of being a verbal process of being able to kind of let my brain do its wonderful bouncing thing, but being able to articulate where I was at and what my knowledge was, because that's where the real difference was. Verbally I could articulate. I could tell you all of these things about different cloud formation and everything get me to write it. It's flat and the information is lost. Someone said to me recently, it's as if they've got the 3D in their head. But then what comes out is 2D. And I just thought that's a really good way actually of putting it of. Or kind of the, you know, when you write it, it's that 2D. It's just flat. I thought, yeah, that makes sense to me. So I do think there are loads of things that can be done just in slightly different way. Just slightly, yeah.

Mark Taylor 00:23:17

And so how did you sort of learning about it in your knowledge, like, say when your son was. Then you were in a position to help him or you didn't want him to have the same experiences, what did you put in place? How were you able to support him that made his experience different than yours?

Kirsty Heap 00:23:32

The first thing was around the self confidence and self esteem. That was huge. And again, it was taking a look at myself in the sense of how I would talk about myself within the home environment in, you know, oh, Kirsty, you're so stupid for doing that. Stupid became a band word that was the same as a swear word in our house. So a lot of it was around gently encouraging him to use more positive language about himself, but also about me using it for me. And that was the same with the children. Yeah, with all of them. It was also, when it came to him, how do I. Looking at doing things in a different way? So I remember him telling me a story. He had. He had to create a story. And I said, right, okay, you verbally tell it, I will type it. So I handed it in and it said, created by Finnegan, typed by Mum. We actually got told off by that. And I said to the teacher, well, politely, you didn't say it had to be written. You didn't say who had to do it. So. So he created the story. That was the word we. We used our creativity with the language that was there. It was, it was empowering him, though, to understand and take responsibility for things himself. Which sometimes meant actually bit of tough love. And that went for both of you, Both of them. So it would be. We would have timetables on the back of the door. And I still remember saying, you know, is it PE today? I don't know. Well, let's check the timetable. And seeing it and him misreading it. And I'm like, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. No P.E. today. Okay. And having to let him go in without that PE kit to. Then when he came back and go, I didn't have my PE kit, go, right, how can we create a strategy then that's going to work for you? I'M going to color code all the PE mum in a different color. Okay? So it was giving him ideas on how to do it, but the strategies that helped him would actually help all of them. So I have. I have two biological children and then three stepchildren, hence why I say I have five. And I had just the two of them up to when they were probably about kind of 10, 11. So we would do revision in a very different way. So my daughter would love me to ask her questions and she would answer them. Not a chance. With Finnegan, him you take outside. He is a hockey goalkeeper. That is a disclaimer I need to make before I say the next line. You take him outside and you throw balls at him. And while you're throwing balls at him, you ask him questions around, whatever the topic is that he may be revising, because then he was actually working on his reaction time, but also having to think about the answer. We're creating fun. We're making it fun. And I would often go on walks with them and just say, yeah, I don't understand this Henry VIII situation in history. Can you just explain to me what. What it is, what you've learned about it, what this means? How do you feel about that? Where do you think their thoughts were? Questions. I would question them lots, and around the dinner table, we would always have a conversation. And I would get them to also work together in a team of, how could we look at this differently? You know, if this is a situation that's troubling you at school, how would you like it to be? What is one thing you could do? And then, you know, Christine, if you've got any ideas of what could help to start having that collaborative conversation.

Mark Taylor 00:27:20

I really think, I mean, you sort of mentioned about that, sort of tough love. But I think we all are in a position where failure, whatever failure is on any given moment, is how we learn. And so understanding that. And what I really liked about what you said is that as parents, we have these safety nets, you know, as people who are looking after us, you know, we know what the bottom line is and we can help them, and we know the bigger picture and all of that kind of thing. And also the fact that you explained before, you know, you leave school thinking it's then going to be suddenly different, but it's just the same in a different four walls or whatever you're doing. And so understanding that who you are and how you work is the most important thing. And what you said there about, you know, he came up with a story, you Wrote it. Well, if I'm at work and I'm doing a presentation, then we're part of a team and so someone might be doing the presenting, someone might have done the slides, someone might have done some recording work that's going to be part of the presentation. Why would you all do the same thing? In fact, you're sort of encouraged to put your best foot forward what it is to do that. So why would you know? Why we're not doing that within the school system is incredible anyway.

Kirsty Heap 00:28:27

Oh exactly.

Mark Taylor 00:28:28

And also in this sort of day and age and with AI and all those sorts of things now I really do just believe that we need to be leaning into all these things more and more and more because you don't need to write anything because you can actually talk about what you want to explain what you want to create and the AI will do it for you. That isn't to say that if you're really good at that, you shouldn't do it manually and vice versa, whatever's going to work for you. But actually why would you make it hard for yourself? Why would you do something which is so difficult just because of who you are? You'd lean into what's going to work and utilize all the things that are around you. It's a bit of a no brainer really, isn't it when you sort of.

Kirsty Heap 00:29:04

In those lines, oh 100%. And you've made me think actually of something else when it came to that parent. Inandamant I don't understand phonics. I don't understand phonics at all. So actually when my children were learning phonics I needed to be courageous and also a bit vulnerable and actually reach out to the school to go, I don't get phonics, I don't understand it. Therefore I cannot help them with that. So I would actually look for other friends to support my children at that time. I still remember one of them getting a dinosaur book. Man. I mean I love dinosaur books in some ways, but the names, not a chance. And that was in year one or year two. And I remember writing in the book, I'm handing this book back because I cannot read it. Please consider the books you send me because I am dyslexic and I am the only parent in the house that I needed to be vulnerable with that. And then when you know the dinosaur book was there, actually share with the kids and go, I don't know how to read this word now. I would have used, I won't say it because my Phone will probably pick it up. But the thing on your phone that you can say to get them to actually. Yeah, I would have asked that how to do it. How do you pronounce that word? And I think that's the other thing, where we've got things that we can put a word in and go pronounce that. For me, that's really helpful because I still remember going to watch Harry Potter in the cinema and I'd read all the books and just sitting there laughing. My friend was like, what's so funny? And I went, well, apparently she's called Hermione. Well, she's not. She's called Hermony in my head. And that's the way I've been reading it for the whole time. So, you know, it's small, things like that. And it's also been able to actually have a bit of a giggle and laugh. Years ago, I would have kind of gone, oh, didn't read that right. How embarrassing. Whereas now I can go and go. That's just where my brain saw it.

Mark Taylor 00:30:58

And. And I think what that really shows is that the idea of personalized learning is so important. And I think for those people now in the modern age, if you are struggling within a school system that's not supporting you, and we hope that it develops and you're in a good, supportive school. But if you find yourself not being supportive and it might be a particular teacher or a particular year or whatever it happens to be, I think having that vulnerability, but also that sense of, how can this work for me? What tools are out there? How am I going to be creative to make it work? There's so many options there, and I think we can then sort of really support that and support people going forward and know that you're just making the best of a world that supports you in the same way as that. If you don't like sport, there's no point playing football every Saturday if you'd rather be learning a musical instrument. If you can do both, then you do both or whatever it happens to be. Yeah, and. And I don't. This is in no way the same because I don't have any experience of. Of being dyslexic myself. But when you sort of mentioned about what you thought and what you were then able to write down as a. As an artist, I'm a professional musician, I understand the arts and the creative side. As an artist, as in someone who's going to draw something I remember from the earliest time in school, can we recreate this? Can we draw this. And I'd see it in my head. And something happened between what was in my head and me moving the pencil or whatever it was on the paper. And it's like, that's not the same thing. And I still, to this day, cannot make the difference between what I see in my head and what comes out on the page, which frustrates me no end, because from a musician's point of view, what I. The sound I hear in my head and what I create as a musician is so in sync. That's sort of the epitome of what it is that I do. But from an artistic point of view, from a drawing point of view, and I appreciate that's not the same, is it, as it is for someone who's dyslexic. But that kind of understanding what I think is happening and actually being able to create it in some way, it still baffles me why that doesn't work.

Kirsty Heap 00:32:51

And I think that's a really nice way actually, of looking at it, is that frustration. It's that frustration of why isn't the pen, the pencil, whatever, creating what I'm seeing in my head, whether it be that picture in that instance, for me, it can be the words. And it can be so frustrating. I can spell the word problem today, may not be able to spell it tomorrow. And that. That can be a problem sometimes because it just stops you in your tracks. And when it stops you in your tracks, it literally means all that lovely thought processes are going to. So that's where the dictation software kind of, for me, has been an absolute game changer.

Mark Taylor 00:33:31

Yeah. And that's. That's fascinating to me because when I'm teaching music, and I've had this experience many times with people who. Who've got dyslexia or. Or some kind of sort of reading impairment. I mean, they're not necessarily kind of diagnosed with anything, but it's that kind of. I can't understand why you played this piece of music brilliantly last week and this week, and you've been practicing. It's not like you've forgotten it this week. It's not. And for some reason, it's like it's almost starting again. Until I started to really understand sort of the way that certain people's brains worked and how it worked in those ways. And sometimes you realize there's a diagnosis that you've not been told about or. Or something like that, but sometimes it's not. But the thing I always try and make sure that they know at that point is the fact that it doesn't actually matter because it probably is and is usually the case that your listening skills are way higher than someone who just reads all the notes and can do that in that particular way. In the same way, it's like you have that creativity. I can tell a story, I can read this, I can explain something which I wouldn't be able to do because I'm really reliant on actually being able to read all the notes or the words on the page or whatever it happens to be. And so what are we trying to do here? We're trying to enjoy music, we're trying to learn, we're trying to understand how we, we learn. So the way I learn might be different to the way you learn. So if you're listening more and you're understanding that actually it sounds like this, and actually this, this rhythm sounds like this particular word which I can always remember, even if I can't see what it looks like on the page, then we can both play this piece as well as each other. We're just coming at it from a different way, but we're still getting the same enjoyment from it. So. But I guess again, that's easier said than done when you in a one to one lesson as a group. And again, that takes us back into the education system. You know, we do have more flexibility now about how we could lean into this, but we want to support people in the way that they can. But I think the key thing for me, and the takeaway from what you said is what can you do for yourself? What can you do to support yourself with the people around you and make that okay to understand that's the most important thing. Because it's your life, it's your world, your existence, how you feel about it and how you're going to sort of make that as part of your journey with everybody else. And so I'm really key, I'm really interested to hear how you sort of taken this experience into your coaching as well. Because that's going to be, I would imagine, such an important element because it must be about that personalized understanding of what someone's needing from you and what they're trying to learn in order to help themselves.

Kirsty Heap 00:35:56

And it has been. And I would say the lived experience is absolutely fundamental to my coaching practice because 99% of my clients are neurodivergent in some way. So it's the fact of I understand them. Coaching predominantly is about getting the answers out of my clients, so to speak. But that doesn't work Always with neurodivergent people because we need to actually be sown that seed or be given an idea of what, what that strategy could look like. So I will often share with clients what's worked for another client. What could work. Can I suggest an idea? Could we consider this? Because then that gives them that little bit of nugget where they can go, no, that won't work for me Kirsty. But now they can work on their creativity and go oh hang on a second, maybe I could do this this way. Or they'll go that's really nice, I'm going to try that. Let's try and weave that in. So the strategy side of it and whether it be problem solving, anything like that, I'm always happy as long as the client is happy. And I'll always ask for that kind of allowance, so to speak to share some ideas with them. And I would say that is probably one of the biggest differences within the coaching. It can often be as well. I say it's a bit like an iceberg. You can have this top bit going on that may be the challenges that are being portrayed within the workplace or the areas of frustration the person's feeling in the workplace that actually quite often there'll be something else going on below. So it will be looking at that. And what I love is the ripple effect of the coaching. So you, you may work with a client and it may involve that communication with the team, it may involve the confidence of that person being able to maybe self advocate. That helps them, it helps the team, it creates that productivity and it has that ripple effect out. And that is what I love and can be. One of the biggest things I would say that changed my productivity levels at work. Putting proudly dyslexic on my emails. I didn't realize that other people didn't reread their email seven times before they send it. Why not is my question. Because we have to be careful about what we send. I didn't realize that and I suddenly put these two words on there and I realized I only reread my emails now three times before I send them. That's a 50 over 50% reduction that productivity. Time for two words. Because it's as if I'm saying to somebody I am dyslexic so if I use the wrong there or our because they're my main things, please give me a bit of grace and as long as you understand, all's good, isn't it? But it just gave me that it's okay and I'm never going to understand semicolon so Grammarly is what I use for that one.

Mark Taylor 00:38:59

And I think that's so right. It's like you understand what I'm trying to say. You understand why I'm saying it all, how it may well have come across. And that's all we really need to know. Because. And, and I think, you know, the thing that you get an issue when you're younger is the fact that at that point there would have been a red pen somewhere that said oh underlined or it's this or that or whatever. And it's like, but you know that you knew what I was trying to say. You also know that I wasn't doing. It's not that I don't know, but this is the way that it's worked for me today. So therefore, do we really need to go down that standard route of how it happens to be.

Kirsty Heap 00:39:33

No. And you've made a really good great point that thinking about to the education side, I was not told what I was doing right often enough. So I didn't know to keep doing it. So feedback, that word feedback to me used to mean destruction because I was going to be destroyed about what I was doing. So that was something also I worked a lot with the kids about of telling them what they'd done right and then asking them what would you wanted to improve in that? How do you feel you could have enhanced that? Not what did you do wrong? Changing that to a positive language makes such a difference because nine out of 10 times, even in the workplace I might go, do you know what that presentation I would have wanted to enhance the budgeting. How I shared that with the board, that could be exactly what my CEO was wanting to say to me. But if I'm saying it, it's softer.

Mark Taylor 00:40:28

And the other thing of course is the fact that everybody should think like this anyway because. Because no matter how you think and how you learn any labels, we all live in a much better world when it's positive, when we're learning, when we're growing and we're enhancing what we are able to do because that negates all of the negativity anyway and it just helps our confidence point of view. The fact that like we're saying they're failing all the time, which is just part of the learning process. It's not a bad thing. It's just that we're just enhancing what we're doing. And I think the reason I really wanted to have this conversation was because I think not only is it important for people to hear the stories of all these things, because we've talked about this subjects many times on the podcast, but they're always different because everybody's different, which is what I love. So that people got to hear that. And you've got teachers who are sort of in a position to go, I hadn't really thought about it in that way. Or how can we make it individual enough? And actually maybe are we stuck in some kind of loop in my classroom where it has to look like this because of time or because of this or the pressures of whatever it happens to be, can we start to implement something differently? Or actually, if I just say this to this particular child in a different way, that's going to make all the difference. And not that you're trying not to have done that before, but maybe that's not the first thing that's on your mind. It's like changing a habit, isn't it? It's that kind of normally I'd go and eat this, and now I'm going to eat this or I would watch this, but now I'm going to do this. Whatever it happens to be. You have to be mindful and thoughtful for all of those things in order to. In order for those things to sort of happen and kind of work forward. So I think no matter what your. Where you are, where you're listening to this, whether you're a parent, a teacher, or anybody that's involved with children, I think you can understand the times where you did it in a way that was going to be positive and maybe a way that wasn't so much. And I don't think any of that matters any more than what you're going to do the next time you say something. And if we can all do that, then the world's going to expand in a greater, greater pace and a greater place for that matter.

Kirsty Heap 00:42:26

The one thing I would love to change, having worked in the education system, is actually on the teacher's side and on the staff side to allow them to be more role models in the sense of being more open about their own neurodivergent conditions. Because if they can role model, that really helps the students.

Mark Taylor 00:42:43

I love that, and I think that's so true. And just opening yourself up to having real stories, I think it is really key. Now, you mentioned feedback. There is such an important thing. Obviously the rest of our acronym there, we've got inspiration, resilience and empowerment. Is there anything else that strikes you? And I love the fact that you'd already mentioned the feedback Element, I think.

Kirsty Heap 00:43:03

They all blend together. And this reminds me actually of a story of when I was in the workplace. I was an HR and admin person and my boss still remember her name, Sophie Gardner was. She was kind of like my ops manager, my financial director. And with the feedback, she always, always looked at the positive, she always looked at what I was doing right. And she always asked me about that, how could I improve and enhance it? And I still remember when she left, she gave me a card and I still have it somewhere in the roof. And it said, let nobody dull your shine. And inside she said, kirsty, you are far more capable than what you are letting yourself believe. Go and shine bright. And I still have that. And it was getting that card that made me go, do you know what you believe in me? She was quite a bit younger than me. I'm going to take that leap of faith and I'm actually going to apply for an HR manager role within the school setting. And I did and I got it. And I will always be grateful for that. Somebody else believing in me, someone else being me. That cheerleader, that inspiration for me, I found that really empowering to actually go and be braver and having the resilience. Oh, man, there's loads of resilience on the way. But you need that. You need the resilience. Yeah, it's how we keep getting back up.

Mark Taylor 00:44:26

Exactly, exactly. It's just, what am I going to do with whatever situation I'm in? And I think also sometimes people forget it's the resilience of what you do after something's been really good, because you might be on a high from something brilliant today, but the next day is just a normal day and it's like, oh, okay. And understanding, you know, it's the highs and the lows and the whatever and how you take that going forward, because it's about what your next step is going to be and so, so incredibly important. So amazing. Such a fantastic conversation. I really do appreciate it. Kirsty, where can people go and find out more about what you offer from a coaching point of view? And obviously the book as well, Kirsty.

Kirsty Heap 00:45:01

Heat.com. and that's heat with a P, not Heat. So H E A P. If you go there, you'll be able to find me and you can find me on kind of LinkedIn, Instagram. The book you can buy directly off the website. So that's probably the easiest way to kind of purchase it. Perfect Christmas presents.

Mark Taylor 00:45:16

Perfect timing as well. Absolutely. And we'll have links to these things in the show notes as well, so people can just click straight through. Kirsty, thank you so much indeed, and keep up the great work.

Kirsty Heap 00:45:26

Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Mark.

Mark Taylor 00:45:30

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.