Embracing Indigenous Learning: A Holistic Approach to Education

Speaker A 00:00:22

But they come in, I'm like, why are you guys building spears?

Speaker A 00:00:24

It's like, well, because the zombies are going to take over the school and we need to build a fort because we're going to attack.

Speaker A 00:00:28

And that's the key to free play.

Speaker A 00:00:30

Because the one thing that comes from free play is an emotional attachment to your learning.

Speaker A 00:00:36

We don't even have bells at our school and our kids are excelling in all facets because they don't have those governmental constraints, so to speak.

Speaker A 00:00:47

And unfortunately, they.

Speaker A 00:00:49

Banning technology in a school doesn't change the fact that there's technology in homes.

Speaker A 00:00:53

It doesn't change the fact that, you know, parents aren't as attached to their kids because they're working sometimes two jobs or till five or six o'clock at night.

Speaker A 00:01:02

And it doesn't change the fact that parents can't afford to send their kids to swim practice.

Speaker A 00:01:08

But nowadays, holding a kid's attention for more than, you know, a 60 second short video clip, it's almost impossible.

Speaker A 00:01:18

There's some archaic practices that don't make sense, especially living in this world.

Speaker A 00:01:22

I don't know the last time I hand wrote a letter to a parent or to a doctor or whomever else, everything's an email and an attachment.

Speaker A 00:01:35

And he was very strict too.

Speaker A 00:01:37

Like he was so we, he was strict and he was funny and we know where he stood and he knew how to, you know, dive into our emotions to attach to our learning, which is again, discovery learning and experiential learning.

Speaker A 00:01:52

You know, the first time you touch a hot stove, you know, not to touch it again.

Speaker A 00:01:57

But he pulled passion out of us and a lot of it had to do with the fact that he brought us out onto the land and we were doing hikes and, you know, going up the side of the mountain and, you know, going up to these creeks.

Speaker A 00:02:13

We need kids to push back.

Speaker A 00:02:14

We need kids to be able to push back on teachers and their peers and.

Speaker A 00:02:18

Because that's where you grow.

Speaker A 00:02:20

And that's exactly why I love education, because our kids are brilliant.

Speaker A 00:02:24

They are 4 years old, 5 years old, 17.

Speaker A 00:02:27

They say some very profound things and we have a lot to learn from them.

Speaker A 00:02:33

When you have people who are emotionally intelligent and they're mindful, our world will be a more successful place.

Speaker B 00:02:41

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast.

Speaker B 00:02:50

The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Speaker B 00:02:55

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Speaker B 00:03:03

Hi, Leroy, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Fire podcast.

Speaker B 00:03:07

It's always great to chat to people from around the world, and especially someone who's got such a sort of diverse professional background and interest in education.

Speaker B 00:03:15

So looking forward to diving into this.

Speaker B 00:03:16

So, yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Speaker A 00:03:18

Thanks for having me, Mark.

Speaker A 00:03:19

I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Speaker B 00:03:21

So let's start where you are in the here and now, rather than doing the long drawn out process of the background.

Speaker B 00:03:28

Who are you working with at the moment and what's sort of currently sort of piquing your interest?

Speaker A 00:03:32

Interestingly enough, I am not in the public education system.

Speaker A 00:03:36

I'm actually working for an independent school.

Speaker A 00:03:39

I'm working an Indian band.

Speaker A 00:03:41

So I'm working on an Indian reservation and I'm in a school that is fully immersed into indigenous culture.

Speaker A 00:03:51

We're on the land a lot.

Speaker A 00:03:53

The medicine wheels at the center of everything we do.

Speaker A 00:03:57

There's a real balanced approach to our education.

Speaker A 00:04:00

It's wonderful.

Speaker A 00:04:02

It is amazing.

Speaker A 00:04:03

It's amazing.

Speaker A 00:04:04

So that's where I'm at as an educator.

Speaker A 00:04:06

Um, and of course, I'm a dad and a couple kids.

Speaker A 00:04:09

One's off in college and one's in grade 11.

Speaker B 00:04:11

So, yeah, great stuff.

Speaker B 00:04:13

And how does the experience of working in that scenario differ from some of the more traditional things that you've experienced?

Speaker B 00:04:21

Sort of pros and cons, I guess, in that sort of perspective, the number.

Speaker A 00:04:25

One pro is that the budget is different.

Speaker A 00:04:30

In a public education system, a lot of the dollars that are targeted for kids gets watered down through.

Speaker A 00:04:38

Through management, and it doesn't trickle down to kids.

Speaker A 00:04:41

And working for an Indian band, the funding, I would say 95% of it trickles down to kids because there's no middle management.

Speaker A 00:04:49

There's one person who's above me and he manages the education for the entire band, not just for the school.

Speaker A 00:04:57

Right.

Speaker A 00:04:57

And so I'm kind of running my own ship.

Speaker A 00:05:01

And so the dollars that we get from the federal and provincial government actually goes into the hands of kids.

Speaker A 00:05:08

So when it comes to programming or just affording field trips and doing whatever, I have a lot more money than I did in the public education system.

Speaker A 00:05:18

I don't have many cons because the pros are amazing.

Speaker A 00:05:23

I really can dictate what we do instructionally, curriculum wise.

Speaker A 00:05:30

We do follow the British Columbia Ministry of Education curriculum.

Speaker A 00:05:33

However, we can adapt it and supplement it based on how we feel it's going to tie into indigenous culture.

Speaker A 00:05:38

And indigenous culture is how we should be living.

Speaker A 00:05:41

It's a balanced lifestyle.

Speaker A 00:05:42

We still are heavily into literacy and numeracy and, you know, we take all those foundational skills seriously.

Speaker A 00:05:50

But we also have a balance where free play is important and structured play is important and being on the land and foraging is important.

Speaker A 00:05:58

And you just can't get that.

Speaker A 00:06:00

We don't even have bells at our school.

Speaker A 00:06:02

And our kids are excelling in all facets because they don't have those governmental constraints, so to speak.

Speaker A 00:06:09

And honestly, the only way I would probably go back to the public education system is if I went back as a superintendent or somebody who could change the structure of the school system.

Speaker A 00:06:24

Otherwise I wouldn't go go.

Speaker A 00:06:26

I wouldn't shift over as a principal.

Speaker A 00:06:27

It just wouldn't.

Speaker A 00:06:29

Wouldn't be the same.

Speaker A 00:06:30

I would be just as frustrated as I was before I left because I just have it too good right now.

Speaker B 00:06:35

And what I love hearing that is the fact that yours basically describing what so many people wished their educational experiences were like.

Speaker B 00:06:44

And not only are you saying it is possible, you're saying that everyone's able to thrive through that situation.

Speaker B 00:06:50

So what is it that you think is.

Speaker B 00:06:53

Is stopping the more traditional setups, taking these sorts of things on board, especially when there's sort of, there's evidence there that actually living that better lifestyle is actually more supportive for everyone, both in terms of the young people and also the.

Speaker B 00:07:06

As well?

Speaker A 00:07:08

Yeah, well, I think it's.

Speaker A 00:07:09

It's a combination, of course, finances, if you don't have the budget, there's certain things that you can't do.

Speaker A 00:07:15

However, it's also a mindset.

Speaker A 00:07:16

And I think, you know, we're, we're living in this, in this WASP mindset, this white Anglo Saxon Protestant kind of mindset where we have to, you know, live in this box.

Speaker A 00:07:28

And, and I think public education, you know, needs to shift.

Speaker A 00:07:31

And I can tell you, teachers in the trenches, special education assistants, paraprofessional students, they want to make the sh.

Speaker A 00:07:38

And a lot of times your leaders, and not necessarily your school leaders like principals and vice principals, it's the leaders like superintendents who are attached to ministries of education or state education departments.

Speaker A 00:07:51

It's almost like they're afraid to dive into the social emotional piece of education, that emotional intelligence piece, and it's being mindful and being emotionally intelligent open so many doors for kids.

Speaker A 00:08:05

And if you teach that early and you have kids who are mindful, it makes learning to read and write and do arithmetic 10 times easier because they can cope.

Speaker A 00:08:15

And, you know, and I think that's where the issue is, is that there, there is a dire need for a shift coming from the trenches and coming from principals and vice principals.

Speaker A 00:08:25

The problem is, and I think superintendents want to make the shift too, but these, these people in charge of educational departments who've never been in the trenches aren't seeing it.

Speaker A 00:08:34

And they keep pushing things like assessment and they do these professional developments around literacy, which are fantastic.

Speaker A 00:08:41

But nowadays holding a kid's attention for more than, you know, a 60 second short video clip, it's almost impossible.

Speaker A 00:08:50

Right.

Speaker A 00:08:51

So we're living in a different environment and I think, you know, if these people would just see that we can't teach like we used to and that if they would shift their focus to one that's more holistic, you're going to have kids who are more creative, who think more critically, who can, who can cope with, with stress like they used to.

Speaker A 00:09:11

And so that's the problem I think, is it really comes down to the higher ups and then of course the financial component as well to allow you to implement certain things.

Speaker B 00:09:21

And it just struck me as you were chatting there, of course, when you've got young children at home, sort of preschool, you're teaching them the idea of, of who they are, kindness, how they fit in society around, whether it's the immediate family or extended family and then the sort of the community at large and, and that's the building block for who these young people become, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:09:41

And it seems amazing that you sort of get to that sort of school age and that seems to become less and less important and like say more and more about that traditional sort of assessment and grading and that kind of thing.

Speaker B 00:09:51

It's not such a.

Speaker B 00:09:53

Some of those things do have a sort of a monetary value, but some of it can just be done sort of understanding that kind of way that we develop in the way that we learn.

Speaker B 00:10:02

So it's fascinating for me to sort of to hear what you said or the backbone of what you're doing now and why some of those things are so important and how that sort of reflects on sort of my experience certainly as a parent and also sort of being involved with young people.

Speaker A 00:10:15

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:10:16

And I think, you know, the biggest thing that, and I, and these, these politicians and these, these ministers of finance, they know the world has shifted and they know there's been a decrease in free play, there's a decrease in structured play because it costs so much.

Speaker A 00:10:32

And there's also a decrease in the level of attachment between parents and their kids because both parents are working and, and there's not a lot of time.

Speaker A 00:10:40

And so what we' seeing is we're seeing more and more children being raised through technology and, and not developing those attachments with their friends through play or attachments with parents.

Speaker A 00:10:51

And because of that we have kids coming into school where they're lacking those skills, where they, we used to get them back in the day, pre technology.

Speaker A 00:11:00

Right.

Speaker A 00:11:00

And I think, you know, the government solution to this here in Canada anyway is to ban technology in, in schools.

Speaker A 00:11:07

Right.

Speaker A 00:11:08

And, and I get it, it, it, it's sure great, but you're not doing anything by banning technology because our kids are being raised in the technological generation.

Speaker A 00:11:19

Right.

Speaker A 00:11:19

It's like the Industrial Revolution.

Speaker A 00:11:20

You don't get to just stop the Industrial Revolution.

Speaker A 00:11:23

It happened.

Speaker A 00:11:24

And so we're in the middle of this.

Speaker A 00:11:26

And so instead of looking at what we can do to harness technology, like for example, you're talking earlier about the time change and how technologies just did that.

Speaker A 00:11:35

It's a pretty miraculous thing.

Speaker A 00:11:37

You know, there's ways we can still have technology, but the key is to go back and, and have schools help parents to give kids those things that we used to have.

Speaker A 00:11:48

And for example, at my school, I have two recesses in the lunch.

Speaker A 00:11:51

So I think I've, I've increased free play, which is where kids build that creativity, that critical thinking, those conflict resolution skills.

Speaker A 00:12:00

And, and so we've, I've developed this emotional schools framework that I do a lot of professional development around for schools and for my own.

Speaker A 00:12:09

We really hone in on understanding the science behind how your brain works both emotionally and cognitively.

Speaker A 00:12:18

And when you do that, you allow kids to be more successful.

Speaker A 00:12:21

And unfortunately, banning technology in a school doesn't change the fact that there's technology in homes.

Speaker A 00:12:26

It doesn't change the fact that parents aren't as attached to their kids because they're working sometimes two jobs or till five or six o'clock at night.

Speaker A 00:12:36

And it doesn't change the fact that parents can't afford to send their kids to swim practice or a basketball practice after school or do these sports.

Speaker A 00:12:44

Cause it costs too much money.

Speaker A 00:12:46

And it doesn't change the fact that after school kids aren't just outside and in the cul de sac or in the backyard or in the field playing with their friends because parents are afraid to send them outside because there's this fear in our culture that they're going to get kidnapped.

Speaker A 00:13:00

So that's the real issue here, is that these solutions they're coming up with, it's Like I have teenagers.

Speaker A 00:13:08

If I tell my teenager he can't go out ever on a Friday night, I guarantee you he's sneaking out to go out on a Friday night, he's going to find a way because he wants it badly.

Speaker A 00:13:17

So you meet them halfway and you help with that transition and you set up boundaries and expectations around going out on a Friday night.

Speaker A 00:13:25

Right.

Speaker A 00:13:25

And educating.

Speaker A 00:13:26

So it's a bit of a long winded answer there, but yeah, no, no.

Speaker B 00:13:30

I just, yeah, I completely agree.

Speaker B 00:13:32

And my daughter's a teenager.

Speaker B 00:13:35

She's just coming to the end of her sort of schooling and on that really sort of basic level of what you said from a technology point of view and that kind of thing.

Speaker B 00:13:42

So all of her exams are handwritten, all the work she's doing now is handwritten.

Speaker B 00:13:47

And you just think if, even if she's planning on going to university, but if she's going to university or certainly getting a job, the next time that someone says to her, can you please hand write an entire program of work?

Speaker B 00:13:59

Or can you hand write X, Y and Z more than a birthday card, thank you note or something like that?

Speaker B 00:14:04

I mean, we just don't even live in that world now.

Speaker B 00:14:06

And so even why that's even a thing in that sort of basic level of just living in that like say the modern world is, is, is sort of mind blowing, but I guess, I guess that's kind of where we are.

Speaker A 00:14:19

Well, and it's interesting that you bring that up because, you know, in the world of AI, I understand why teachers may have kids hand write an in class essay for assessment or do a test handwritten.

Speaker A 00:14:32

I understand that completely because then it removes the technology, removes any possibility that they're going to use A and cheat and it's not their knowledge.

Speaker A 00:14:41

But when it comes to like my daughter, all of her assignments are handed in online.

Speaker A 00:14:46

We use a, they use a program called teams.

Speaker A 00:14:49

And so she does them on a computer, she emails from her to her teacher.

Speaker A 00:14:52

And when she does get a teacher that wants an assignment handed in, it kind of throws us for a spin because, you know, especially in high school it's like, why, why, why?

Speaker A 00:15:02

That makes no sense.

Speaker A 00:15:03

So a teacher can put it on their desk.

Speaker A 00:15:04

And you know how many times teachers lose assignments when you put it in the hand in box and whatnot.

Speaker A 00:15:09

Right.

Speaker A 00:15:09

So I mean, in elementary school it's a different beast because you need to teach handwriting, you need to teach those fine motor skills and you know, kids can hand in work and you're not using technology as much until they're probably in like grade 5, 6, 7 when you're teaching essay writing and whatnot.

Speaker A 00:15:24

But yeah, it's.

Speaker A 00:15:27

There's some archaic practices that don't make sense, especially living in this world.

Speaker A 00:15:31

I don't know the last time I hand wrote a letter to a parent or to a doctor or whomever else, everything's an email and an attachment when I have to, you know, work with other professionals or talk to parents and I mean, I guess I write things on a post it note once in a while, but that's just for my 51 year old memory.

Speaker B 00:15:54

Yeah, I'm with you there exactly.

Speaker B 00:15:56

The world according to post it notes has saved me many, many a day.

Speaker A 00:16:00

Yes sir.

Speaker B 00:16:02

The, the free play.

Speaker B 00:16:03

I'm curious to sort of just come back to that because for those people who don't know, I mean the idea of free play is it just you've got this amount of time just go off and do your own thing or from an education point of view, is it more kind of we're creating the environment because of course you're still within a school setting.

Speaker B 00:16:21

We're giving you the opportunity to be involved with these sorts of things because we've been able to buy, I don't know, these type of apparatus or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker B 00:16:30

So from a sort of an educational sort of view, can you just sort of tell us what free play means in that kind of way?

Speaker A 00:16:36

For sure.

Speaker A 00:16:37

And I think I'm going to separate a school based free play system from a home based free play system.

Speaker A 00:16:44

Because what you're describing in terms of a school of free play, like we, you go outside and there's monkey bars and there's rock climbing walls and there's swings and there's.

Speaker A 00:16:53

Those are things that are there, you know, however, there's still fields of grass, there's still rocks and dirt and sticks and you know, so free play really is about kids going outside and exploring and discovering.

Speaker A 00:17:07

So it's that experiential learning and that discovery learning.

Speaker A 00:17:09

Right.

Speaker A 00:17:10

And you know, and if I tie it back to home, even at home, a lot of people in their backyard will have a trampoline or they'll have a swimming pool or you know, here my kids can go outside and be up the mountain in 10 minutes if they want to, or they're riding their bikes and doing those sorts of things.

Speaker A 00:17:24

And you know, and that's the key to free play.

Speaker A 00:17:27

Because the one thing that comes from free play is an emotional attachment to your learning through play.

Speaker A 00:17:34

Starting when we're infants, through play, we learn facial expressions, we learn how to identify.

Speaker A 00:17:40

You know, when a baby looks at you, they can tell when you're smiling or in there or if you're angry as a parent.

Speaker A 00:17:45

And.

Speaker A 00:17:46

And they're learning those cues, and they're absorbing it, and their mind is growing.

Speaker A 00:17:50

And so that Free Place, Free Play piece revolves around creativity and kids being able to go outside and collaborating with all of these.

Speaker A 00:17:59

If you can tell by the words I'm using, they're all buzzwords that you would use in a major industry.

Speaker A 00:18:03

If you're having a meeting at, you know, at Apple, you're collaborating, you're being creative, you're critical thinking, and it comes from play.

Speaker A 00:18:11

And as that's disappearing, that's why we're having these kids showing up into kindergarten with speech and language deficits.

Speaker A 00:18:18

Their cognitive levels are lower, their.

Speaker A 00:18:21

Their ability to learn is lower because it's.

Speaker A 00:18:23

We're losing it.

Speaker A 00:18:24

And so in a school, it's truly a combination and this symbiotic relationship between free and structured play.

Speaker A 00:18:33

So you have the recesses before school, the lunchtimes and whatnot, but in class, you can play structured games that will help kids learn to collaborate and to critically think.

Speaker A 00:18:44

Even you do intramural programs at lunchtime where kids are playing football, you guys would call it soccer, or they're playing road hockey or doing whatever.

Speaker A 00:18:54

And.

Speaker A 00:18:55

And then, of course, schools have programs where they have basketball teams and volleyball teams and football teams.

Speaker A 00:19:00

And so it's about meshing all those, because the learning that comes from free and structured play is massive.

Speaker A 00:19:06

And.

Speaker A 00:19:07

And that's probably the biggest deficit you're seeing in schools when kids are entering at four or five years old into the school system is because they haven't, you know, free played or had that structured play as much as we did in the 80s and 90s.

Speaker A 00:19:25

Their brain hasn't developed.

Speaker A 00:19:26

And so that's why it's important for us as schools to make sure that we're allowing kids the opportunity to get outside and be creative with their friends and.

Speaker A 00:19:37

And to play and to.

Speaker A 00:19:38

You know, I had some kids come in the other day.

Speaker A 00:19:40

A teacher brought them in because they were building spears.

Speaker A 00:19:43

And of course, the teacher's like, oh, my God, they're going to stab somebody with a spear.

Speaker A 00:19:47

You know, but they come in, I'm like, why are you guys building spears?

Speaker A 00:19:49

It's like, well, because the zombies are going to take over the school and we need to build a fort because we're going to attack.

Speaker A 00:19:53

And they completely created this plan.

Speaker A 00:19:55

To surround the zombies and to attack them.

Speaker A 00:19:58

And they had to.

Speaker A 00:19:59

They were using rocks to cut the spears, which is traditional, you know, what you do traditionally.

Speaker A 00:20:04

So there's so much learning besides the fact that it was about killing.

Speaker A 00:20:08

But once we got past that, it's like, wow.

Speaker A 00:20:11

And they went on for 10 minutes just explaining to me their tactic and strategy, which came from a video game.

Speaker A 00:20:18

They playing plants versus zombies or something like that, or they seen it on tv, but they brought it to the playground and they didn't need technology to do that.

Speaker A 00:20:25

And they created this whole system and.

Speaker A 00:20:28

And what the society was going to be like once they got rid of the zombies because of free play.

Speaker A 00:20:34

And.

Speaker A 00:20:34

And that you can't teach that.

Speaker A 00:20:36

Right.

Speaker A 00:20:36

That's.

Speaker A 00:20:37

That's them learning together.

Speaker A 00:20:38

And.

Speaker A 00:20:39

And so free play is truly about that piece.

Speaker A 00:20:42

Right.

Speaker B 00:20:43

And what I love about that is like, say you had the attention, or rather they had the attention for you because they were already in the middle of it while they were explaining it.

Speaker B 00:20:51

And I think sometimes the like say the initial reaction is, this is going to be dangerous.

Speaker B 00:20:55

We need to stop this or we're going to be responsible.

Speaker B 00:20:58

But actually the first conversation, even if you think that that is the case, is, how can we discuss this?

Speaker B 00:21:03

Or how can we make this safe?

Speaker B 00:21:05

Or how can we just at least have a conversation about, you realize what you're doing in the.

Speaker B 00:21:09

You know, the implications of that.

Speaker B 00:21:10

And as long as they've kind of covered what they need to cover and they're being sensible and all the rest of it, and you feel like you've done whatever you need to do, then like, say you've worked through that, much the same as she's mentioned about the going out on a Friday night, these things are going to happen.

Speaker B 00:21:23

So having a sensible conversation about how we can work together to make it still exciting, still something fun, still something that you really want to do, but with that kind of, I guess, maturity, but certainly understanding of the responsibilities that go with all of these sorts of things.

Speaker B 00:21:38

And then I think we're learning together, we're playing together, we're sort of.

Speaker B 00:21:41

But surviving together, which I think then you kind of feel like you're empowered to do whatever you like rather than, oh, I'd love to do this, but they're going to stop me, or we can't do this because it might be a bit dangerous or whatever that happens to be.

Speaker A 00:21:53

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:21:54

And I think you nailed it.

Speaker A 00:21:55

So when you were asking me the difference between the public school and what we're doing here is, is the freedom to, to tinker with that.

Speaker A 00:22:02

So for example, one of the things that.

Speaker A 00:22:04

Recess time, I will tell my supervisors, if you see two kids in a conflict, right, you can see them arguing, their voices might get raised.

Speaker A 00:22:11

I tell them to just watch, jump in when you think they're going to come to blows.

Speaker A 00:22:16

You know, try to get there before that, but let them figure it out.

Speaker A 00:22:18

Let them work through those, those emotions.

Speaker A 00:22:20

Because we're also, you know, while we're incorporating free and structured play, we're teaching kids to self soothe, to be mindful when they're starting to feel those emotions.

Speaker A 00:22:28

We're teaching them how to calm because they understand the science of emotions.

Speaker A 00:22:32

And so what we see on the playground during free and structured play is when, when things get heated or there's an argument, we let them go and we let them figure.

Speaker A 00:22:40

And as long as they don't come to blows and they can come back into class and they shake hands, it's like, okay, we got it, they're good.

Speaker A 00:22:46

That's just, that's been able to solve conflict.

Speaker A 00:22:49

And the hardest part for teachers is we're so controlling and we want to intervene too soon.

Speaker A 00:22:56

And the other part to that is society nowadays, you know, if, God forbid, if a kid, you know, gets hurt at school or something, that's like, right away, I'm gonna sue the school or you did this or you weren't watching my kids.

Speaker A 00:23:07

Like he fell off the monkey bars.

Speaker A 00:23:10

You know, he was, he was swinging, he was hanging upside down like we used to do, and he fell off.

Speaker A 00:23:14

It was not negligence.

Speaker A 00:23:16

It was, you know, he, he learned a lesson.

Speaker A 00:23:17

He didn't break his neck because that never happens.

Speaker A 00:23:20

Maybe.

Speaker A 00:23:21

0, 0.1% of the time a kid gets hurt at school, but worst you're gonna get is, you know, maybe a kid will get a cut lip or a broken arm.

Speaker A 00:23:30

But even then, I mean, how many times do you see kids nowadays in a cast?

Speaker A 00:23:33

You just don't see it, right?

Speaker A 00:23:35

And it's, and it's unfortunate because that's the part of play and I think that's the biggest difference at my school is that we can allow our kids to explore and push the boundaries and challenge themselves emotionally and physically.

Speaker A 00:23:50

And it has a huge difference on their ability to persevere and develop that grit.

Speaker B 00:23:54

And you know, I think the emotional things are really fascinating one because I think, think certainly in the modern society there's so much of that kind of, oh, you upset, don't be upset or don't do this or don't do that cut, like you say, calm down and, you know, just kind of toe the line, as it were, and actually to support people to say, you know, if you are angry, then that's absolutely fine.

Speaker B 00:24:17

And you might, you know, you might find a way that you want that or understand how that process goes.

Speaker B 00:24:22

You know, I was angry.

Speaker B 00:24:23

I've now calmed down.

Speaker B 00:24:25

What was it that caused it?

Speaker B 00:24:26

Whatever those conversations were in the same ways, whether you're happy and sad, they're all part of our human existence.

Speaker B 00:24:30

And knowing that they all interact together and like, say, the understanding of them is important, rather than, let's not talk about that or let's not go down that route or don't feel that or don't, don't show that to someone else, because heaven forbid that they might get upset because you, you're in that particular state.

Speaker B 00:24:48

You can see why as a society, we get into sort of all sorts of trouble because that is being a human and understanding it and living with it and being part.

Speaker B 00:24:57

That being part of who you are is an integral part of thriving, I think.

Speaker B 00:25:00

And then, like you say, as you grow up and you get more mature, you get to understand how that works.

Speaker B 00:25:05

And that has to be a positive thing, one would think, as you go into adulthood, rather than trying to shut all that down.

Speaker A 00:25:10

Yeah, well, emotional intelligence is so important.

Speaker A 00:25:13

And emotional intelligence starts with being mindful.

Speaker A 00:25:17

If you can be mindful of how you're feeling and being mindful of how others are feeling, that's going to allow you to develop the emotional intelligence, to be aware of what those feelings are and understanding the science behind it.

Speaker A 00:25:32

And it's critical that we teach this early because, because unfortunately, as kids grow into adults, if they don't develop that ability to be mindful and develop that emotional intelligence, intelligent, you know, look what's going on right now.

Speaker A 00:25:46

I mean, you look at this idiot Donald Trump, who's, who's running the United States based on narcissism and his ego.

Speaker A 00:25:53

That's all that is.

Speaker A 00:25:53

And if, if this guy would have at some point in his life been taught how to be more emotionally intelligent and, you know, and more mindful of other people and develop some empathy, you know, narcissism wouldn't be ruling North America right now.

Speaker A 00:26:08

And, and it's, it's a case in point.

Speaker A 00:26:10

And, you know, I have kids who are five years old who are more emotionally intelligent than that guy.

Speaker A 00:26:15

And, and that's why it's important, because if we don't teach these kids, when they do grow into adults, yes, some of them may learn to be mindful.

Speaker A 00:26:22

They may learn how to control their emotion, but if they don't, they can be quite dangerous people, you know, and it's.

Speaker A 00:26:28

It's a real.

Speaker A 00:26:29

It's a reality.

Speaker A 00:26:30

It's the reality that we live in.

Speaker A 00:26:32

When you have people who are emotionally intelligent and they're mindful, our world will be a more successful place.

Speaker A 00:26:38

And, you know, it's.

Speaker A 00:26:41

It's like putting the cart before the horse.

Speaker A 00:26:43

Yeah, we can teach numeracy and literacy until we're blue in the face, but if we don't have kids who are strong enough to get to that math problem that's really difficult and not quit, then we're in trouble.

Speaker A 00:26:55

And nowadays what we have is we have kids whose attention spans don't last more than 60 seconds, and then when the going gets tough, they do quit.

Speaker A 00:27:03

And the only way to get past that and to develop that perseverance is by developing emotional intelligence, because they can go, okay, I'm feeling frustrated.

Speaker A 00:27:11

This is difficult.

Speaker A 00:27:13

You know, I'm getting angry with this.

Speaker A 00:27:15

I need to take some deep breaths.

Speaker A 00:27:17

I need to be mindful so I can persevere.

Speaker A 00:27:19

And that, unfortunately, is what our school systems have become, is these places of small, stressful events that kids can't handle, and they just result in behaviors like we've never seen before.

Speaker B 00:27:35

So let's take this to a possible, say, solution.

Speaker B 00:27:39

That's probably grand thinking, but I know leadership's important in terms of your philosophy and how things work.

Speaker B 00:27:48

So it always seems to me that the two sides of the coin are obviously that you can only do what you do.

Speaker B 00:27:53

So as a teacher or someone who's not in a leadership role, you try and do the best you can within any confines that you've got.

Speaker B 00:27:59

But in all the episodes I've done, it very often becomes that if you don't have the support of the leadership or the leadership don't make the environment feel where you're supported, or you can grow and, you know, create a world that we've been talking about, then it's going to be very hard to do that in, in the long term.

Speaker B 00:28:15

So in your sort of experience, how does.

Speaker B 00:28:18

What does that leadership look like?

Speaker B 00:28:19

And, and like, say, if you've got a great environment in a great school already, then, then maybe you don't know any different.

Speaker B 00:28:25

But for those sort of situations, like I say, where it's been slightly more stressful or you've been more sort of handcuffed because of the system you're in or the society that you're in or the local authority that you're in.

Speaker B 00:28:37

What can leaders do or what can they at least be aware of to kind of make the best of the situation that they have for them?

Speaker A 00:28:43

They need to be aware of themselves.

Speaker A 00:28:45

I think that, you know, I've been at this for 25 years and I've, you know, I've been in I don't know how many schools now, six or seven schools.

Speaker A 00:28:53

And I've come into schools that were very toxic and very difficult.

Speaker A 00:28:57

Difficult.

Speaker A 00:28:58

And you know, in those environments, as a principal, regardless of how good I am as a leader, it felt very uncomfortable being in those environments to the point where I would, I would take it home with me.

Speaker A 00:29:11

I would, I would struggle, you know, emotionally.

Speaker A 00:29:14

I wouldn't be as good of a father.

Speaker A 00:29:16

I dreaded going to work in the morning.

Speaker A 00:29:18

And I think if a principal can stop for a second and go, holy shit, this doesn't feel good, then they're in the right place.

Speaker A 00:29:26

Because then they need to know if something doesn't feel good in the workplace and they can feel the toxicity in their environment, then at that point they know it's time for a change.

Speaker A 00:29:35

Or they can sit in it if they like it.

Speaker A 00:29:37

But you know, if you want to sit.

Speaker A 00:29:39

That's why people are leaving the educational, you know, field in droves because they are being forced to sit it and they don't like it.

Speaker A 00:29:46

But as a school leader, you again, it comes back to emotional intelligence.

Speaker A 00:29:50

You have to be mindful of how you're feeling.

Speaker A 00:29:52

If you can feel discombobulation, if you can feel toxicity, you need to change for your own self preservation.

Speaker A 00:30:00

So go ahead and let your ego kick in.

Speaker A 00:30:03

Look at it from a lens of how do I help me even ignore your school?

Speaker A 00:30:07

Because if you stop and say, how am I going to help my emotional health, my mental health, inevitably you're going to have to make the changes for your school to get there.

Speaker A 00:30:18

You don't get to just get that, you know, especially if you're a good administrator, they typically will move you to a school that's toxic to go in and fix it.

Speaker A 00:30:25

And you know, and they don't typically just put you in utopia and saying, here you're going to this school and this is how it's going to be.

Speaker A 00:30:31

And if they do take you and put you there, when you come from a toxic environment, normally you bring those bad traits and you'll ruin that school.

Speaker A 00:30:37

So the key is, is to be self aware, to really address your feelings and understand and then have a Conversation with teachers saying, hey, this is how I'm feeling as a principal here.

Speaker A 00:30:47

How are you feeling?

Speaker A 00:30:48

And you develop a common view and once you develop a common view that you're right.

Speaker A 00:30:52

Yeah, you can cut the tension in here with a knife.

Speaker A 00:30:54

You can see that this is, this is toxic.

Speaker A 00:30:57

It doesn't feel good.

Speaker A 00:30:58

None of us like coming to work on Monday morning.

Speaker A 00:31:00

And that's where you start.

Speaker A 00:31:01

I've actually developed a program called the emotional schools framework.

Speaker A 00:31:05

And I go and I work with schools and I work with administrators to incorporate an emotional schools framework into their school.

Speaker A 00:31:12

And it does start at the top.

Speaker A 00:31:13

And you know, and, and it doesn't cost a lot of money if you bring me in.

Speaker A 00:31:17

It might cost, I think depending on the size of your school, I remember between three and $5,000.

Speaker A 00:31:22

But you're not paying for a subscription after.

Speaker A 00:31:24

There's a common language that goes with it.

Speaker A 00:31:26

Everything is structured into what you do, but it revolves around being mindful, around being emotionally intelligent and being self aware.

Speaker A 00:31:35

And that's where it starts.

Speaker A 00:31:38

It's a no brainer.

Speaker A 00:31:41

You probably have heard of Mel Robbins.

Speaker A 00:31:43

She's the just let them lady making kajillion dollars right now because, and she's making money of US 30, 40, 50 year olds because we're stressed.

Speaker A 00:31:55

Because you know what, we get caught up in how other people feel.

Speaker A 00:31:58

We get caught up in how things are working.

Speaker A 00:32:01

We get caught up in this toxicity.

Speaker A 00:32:02

And at the end of the day, as a school principal, it's no different from, you know, for you as it is for anyone else in terms of your mental health.

Speaker A 00:32:10

Look at it and go, okay, my work is affecting my mental health.

Speaker A 00:32:14

I'm stressed.

Speaker A 00:32:15

Where do I go?

Speaker A 00:32:16

And honestly, it goes to being mindful and emotionally intelligent and getting everyone on board.

Speaker A 00:32:21

And it's not hard to incorporate.

Speaker A 00:32:23

It is so easy to incorporate into a school.

Speaker A 00:32:25

It's literally I go and I do a five hour workshop, provide you with the resources that you need.

Speaker A 00:32:30

It's not something that you have to teach for 30 minutes every day.

Speaker A 00:32:34

Once you get the program.

Speaker A 00:32:35

Yeah, there's some front loading that takes about a, you know, two or three, four weeks.

Speaker A 00:32:39

And then it's about embedding it into what you do every day and it becomes part of your culture and you don't even know you're on an emotional schools framework because it's, it's the right thing to do.

Speaker A 00:32:49

It's, it's, it's what Brene Brown does when she talks about vulnerability.

Speaker A 00:32:53

It's what, you know, Mel Robbins talks about with the just them theory.

Speaker A 00:32:56

It's about Gordon Neufeld, what he talks about, you know, the play theory.

Speaker A 00:33:00

And it's, you know, it's, it's simple.

Speaker A 00:33:03

It's, it's simple.

Speaker A 00:33:05

And it just drives me nuts when I, you know, when I run into leaders who just, you know, they're struck.

Speaker A 00:33:13

My, my literacy rates are low, my numeracy rates are low.

Speaker A 00:33:16

I can't get my teachers to do this, that or the other stop and think why?

Speaker A 00:33:21

And it's usually because they're unhappy, because there's something that's not right.

Speaker A 00:33:26

And then you fix that.

Speaker A 00:33:28

Then you identify the structures in your school to tinker with your structure and develop those, those emotional intelligence skills.

Speaker A 00:33:36

The relationships come, the servant leadership comes, the organizational leader comes, and it all blends in.

Speaker A 00:33:42

And it's, it's really not hard, but you have to be willing to self reflect and go, okay, you know, and if, you know, if you're an asshole, if you're one of those authoritarian kind of bosses, you got to look in the mirror and go, you know, typically guys like, you know, people who are assholes don't really see the toxicity.

Speaker A 00:33:58

They, it's their ego driven.

Speaker A 00:34:00

But in education, they're very few and far between.

Speaker A 00:34:02

I'd say 95% of principals are there for the right reasons and if they could just self reflect, it would just, it would change everything.

Speaker B 00:34:10

Yeah, I think that awareness is key, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:34:13

And like, say, I'm glad you sort of mentioned that thing about the fact that some people just don't because they're not even prepared to look or they don't know or don't think they need to like say, whether that's ego driven or whatever.

Speaker B 00:34:22

But I think just knowing that you can pull the curtain back so easily and then once you do that, like you say the, the rest of it with the structure and the understanding and that can take care of itself.

Speaker B 00:34:33

And I think that's such a, it's such a valuable thing.

Speaker A 00:34:37

Yeah, you have to be vulnerable.

Speaker B 00:34:39

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B 00:34:40

So I'm always curious in terms of your sort of learning and how you deal with things.

Speaker B 00:34:45

Now obviously we've talked about your experience as an educator, but it was there a teacher, was there a learning experience when you were at school, which you remember, that had a bit of an impact and do you sort of draw that into what you're doing now?

Speaker B 00:34:57

Or it could be positive or negative, I guess, because sometimes you have a teacher, you thought this really isn't right and you do completely the opposite.

Speaker B 00:35:04

Like say with this sort of more mature mindset.

Speaker A 00:35:06

Yeah, actually in my, my first book that I wrote, the Emotional schools book, I.

Speaker A 00:35:11

My acknowledgment went to my grade 56 teacher, Mr.

Speaker A 00:35:16

Riley.

Speaker A 00:35:18

Mr.

Speaker A 00:35:18

Riley was from South Africa.

Speaker A 00:35:22

He's obviously an immigrant to Canada.

Speaker A 00:35:24

And he taught with so much passion and he, he somehow, I mean back then I wouldn't know but how he did it, but he pulled passion out of us and a lot of it had to do with the fact that he brought us out onto the land and we were doing hikes and you know, going up the side of the mountain and you know, going up to these creek and then he would, you know, he would, he would be so passionate about how he taught and then made and made and he found, you know, it was interesting, you know, because differentiation is a big buzzword now.

Speaker A 00:36:00

And back when I was in school and when I had him and you know, in 1979, 1980, whenever it was actually probably 83, you know, he was very good at differentiating the way and what he taught that connected with us, you know.

Speaker A 00:36:16

And so it was very interesting how he was able to bring in every subject in a way that he found a way to make it interesting.

Speaker A 00:36:24

And he was very strict too.

Speaker A 00:36:26

Like he was.

Speaker A 00:36:27

So we, he was strict and he was funny and we know where he stood and, and he knew how to, you know, dive into our emotions to attach to our learning, which is again, discovery learning and experiential learning.

Speaker A 00:36:40

You know, the first time you touch a hot stove, you know, not to touch it again.

Speaker A 00:36:45

Right.

Speaker A 00:36:45

And it's.

Speaker A 00:36:46

He.

Speaker A 00:36:46

He figured that out and I am forever grateful for the way I had him for grade five and grade six.

Speaker A 00:36:54

So I was quite lucky.

Speaker A 00:36:54

But yeah, my first book I wrote, I.

Speaker A 00:36:56

I acknowledged him because he had a massive impact.

Speaker A 00:36:59

And over the years there were other teachers and other leaders that had an impact on me.

Speaker A 00:37:03

But I can almost tell you every single moment in that class, you know, of learning and fun and, and the things that we did, it's because we were out of class in class, out of class in class.

Speaker A 00:37:17

Like he really believed in being outside and being inside and taking what you learned inside and doing it outside, which is a lot of what I do at the, what we do at our, at the band school I'm at now is that the indigenous way of learning is hands on, on the land and in class.

Speaker A 00:37:33

Right.

Speaker B 00:37:33

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 00:37:34

And I was just going to say that kind of full circle of finding yourself in exactly that spot now, having had that that experience in a really positive way way is in some ways it's no surprise, but in, in some ways, you know, let's say an interesting sort of point of, of time and, and sort of making that become a reality.

Speaker B 00:37:51

And I think the other thing that just struck me then as well is the fact that you sort of mentioned about them being strict.

Speaker B 00:37:57

It's not that, you know, young people want everyone to be sort of really soft and you know, knowing where you are, knowing where those boundaries are and being fair and honest and actually having proper conversations about that, that there's something very supportive about that.

Speaker B 00:38:12

It's not that every teacher has to be the same or react in the same way or have the same way of being like, say it's that connection, I think, in the understanding, the framework around that.

Speaker B 00:38:21

But when it's child centered, I think all those things become organic.

Speaker B 00:38:24

As soon as it becomes sort of educational framework centered, then you've immediately lost who you are and what you're trying to do.

Speaker B 00:38:31

And I think that's where the disconnect probably gets started.

Speaker A 00:38:34

Yeah, I think the biggest, hardest part for teachers in terms of that word, being strict, is that parents are so judgmental.

Speaker A 00:38:41

You know, God forbid you have to use a firm tone, because you do.

Speaker A 00:38:45

You have to use a firm tone when you have a class of 24 grade ones who are a bunch of orangutans.

Speaker A 00:38:50

I will raise my voice.

Speaker A 00:38:51

I will have a firm tone.

Speaker A 00:38:52

I will say, sit down, right?

Speaker A 00:38:55

And they'll see it on my face.

Speaker A 00:38:56

And, and it's not because I'm emotional, it's because I'm pulling that out so they can see that.

Speaker A 00:39:00

Because I want them for that second to feel a little bit of fear that they need to listen to authority.

Speaker A 00:39:05

And we live in this world where parents are constantly criticizing teachers and educators if they use a little bit of fear.

Speaker A 00:39:13

And they think that education should all be about joy and fun and rainbows and unicorns and talk to my kid.

Speaker A 00:39:21

And yes, we do all of that.

Speaker A 00:39:22

But it comes a time where kids need to understand who the boss is.

Speaker A 00:39:27

And that's the hardest part, I think, is that you're not even allowed to be that strict or structured without a parent accusing you of, of emotionally harming their child.

Speaker A 00:39:40

And that's part of the problem that we live in today is that we've got parents who have kids in bubble wrap, which is part of the reason why free play is declining because A, they're afraid they're going to get kidnapped.

Speaker A 00:39:51

And even though there's less kidnappings in the world than there was 30 years ago.

Speaker A 00:39:55

B, they're afraid that they're going to get a scrape on their knee.

Speaker A 00:39:57

C, they're afraid that, you know, they might, you know, get their feelings hurt by somebody when they're playing.

Speaker A 00:40:03

So they, they protect them from all of these things which is causing part of the huge mental health crisis that we're seeing around our youth in the world.

Speaker A 00:40:14

They're just not tough enough.

Speaker A 00:40:15

And I think when I go back to talk about Mr.

Speaker A 00:40:18

Riley and it's like bell bottom pants and bell bottoms in the 70s were beautiful and now they're coming full circle.

Speaker A 00:40:25

And it's the same thing with education.

Speaker A 00:40:27

Yes, our style of teaching involves technology.

Speaker A 00:40:31

We're more creative, we can use video, we can, we can use more visuals which we didn't have back then.

Speaker A 00:40:38

We're paper pencils sitting in a row.

Speaker A 00:40:40

So it wasn't as dynamic but we also didn't need it because we could be bored because we had rocks and sticks to play with.

Speaker A 00:40:47

And I think that's where, you know, education needs to shift back to, is that we need to start incorporating the bell bottom theory.

Speaker A 00:40:55

I just created a new theory, the bell bottom theory in education where we.

Speaker A 00:41:00

There you go.

Speaker A 00:41:01

We need to bring back the free and that structured place so kids can learn how to be resilient and develop that grit.

Speaker A 00:41:09

And parents need to stop pointing their finger at teachers thinking they're being mean or this, that and the other.

Speaker A 00:41:16

And yet there are some teachers who are mean and they shouldn't be in education.

Speaker A 00:41:20

But 98% of teachers are not mean, you know, and parents should realize that, you know, there has to be a firm approach.

Speaker A 00:41:27

We have to expect our kids to work through tough things and that's what's lacking.

Speaker A 00:41:33

And that's why, you know, we need to go back to that free play from the 70s and 80s and 90s where kids were tough and they had grit and they could get a scraped knee and you know, a cut under their eye or whatever it is and keep going.

Speaker A 00:41:47

And that's, you know, where we're at in societies.

Speaker A 00:41:50

We're in this crossroads of social media, you know, decreasing our kids ability to stay focused and parents worrying about, you know, their kids feelings getting hurt.

Speaker A 00:42:04

And it's, we got to get back to that place where kids learn how to cope with tough feelings and they develop that grit to persevere past a 60 second video clip.

Speaker A 00:42:14

And you know, and I'm not saying that we need to teach like we did in 78s because we should not, because teachers are amazing, the things they do in classes, and kids can be ten times more productive.

Speaker A 00:42:25

But we got to get them back to being tough kids again.

Speaker B 00:42:29

And is there a piece of advice that you were given either through training or sort of through your sort of experience in work, or even maybe some advice you'd give your younger self now?

Speaker B 00:42:41

And I know we don't always accept that when we're younger as well, but something is a younger Leroy might.

Speaker B 00:42:47

You might think that would be quite an important thing to have known maybe earlier on in my career.

Speaker A 00:42:52

Yeah, I think early in my.

Speaker A 00:42:54

In my career as a principal, when I first started, I kind of ran my schools with an iron fist.

Speaker A 00:43:01

Speaking of using fear, I ran schools based on how I was raised by an Italian father, was very strict, followed these rules you didn't hear was the consequence.

Speaker A 00:43:10

And I wished that I could have backed up, I could back up and go back and incorporate more of an emotionally intelligent mindset and a mindfulness, this mindset.

Speaker A 00:43:20

Because, you know, I do think that I probably did a disservice to some kids who needed to be more creative and have more, you know, more of a leash to let them run, you know, let the horse out of the gate.

Speaker A 00:43:34

And I really kept kids pretty contained, and they learned and they did well.

Speaker A 00:43:39

And I have great relationship with kids.

Speaker A 00:43:41

And, you know, I'm not saying I was just this mean guy, but I was really structured.

Speaker A 00:43:46

And I think if, knowing what I know now, I would go back and allow for that creative flow in classrooms and with kids to kind of push back more.

Speaker A 00:43:58

So because we need kids to push back.

Speaker A 00:44:00

We need kids to be able to push up, back on teachers and their peers, because that's where you grow.

Speaker A 00:44:06

I think I took that away early in my career.

Speaker A 00:44:09

I mean, it changed probably about 10 or so even long, 12, 13 years ago.

Speaker A 00:44:14

I made the change.

Speaker A 00:44:16

But my first 10 years, I.

Speaker A 00:44:18

I was really old school, and I.

Speaker A 00:44:20

I was still good at what I did, but I just, I.

Speaker A 00:44:22

I think it.

Speaker A 00:44:23

Yeah, I wish I could go back and change that.

Speaker B 00:44:26

I think it's good to have people saying, you know, you might like to do it differently.

Speaker B 00:44:31

But like I say, you only know what you know at the time.

Speaker B 00:44:33

But to also know that you're continually development, you're continually developing rather, and that your development over that time comes through with experience, it comes with knowledge.

Speaker B 00:44:43

It becomes with maturity.

Speaker B 00:44:45

And I think these conversations are great because you sort of.

Speaker B 00:44:47

You hear all of that experience in one sort of fell swoop, as it were, and Then you can reflect and be aware of sort of, well, what am I doing within my school or within my education setting or how am I speaking to that child?

Speaker B 00:44:59

And is it, is it what I want to do?

Speaker B 00:45:01

Is it something I can feel that I want to make a difference but I'm not quite sure how because I think then you can start to feel like you're learning as well with whether it's chatting to another teacher, whether it's going to your leadership, if it's like you say, just going outside of the education world and actually starting to listen to someone like Mel Robbins or whatever, just to sort of think, oh, there's, there's more to this out here than I was ever aware of or whatever it is that you're going to get that extra bit of information or growth or however it takes you forward.

Speaker B 00:45:27

So yeah, I think they're all positive things and the accepting of who you were or accepting of who you are, but just knowing that it's not set in stone I think is such an important facet.

Speaker A 00:45:37

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A 00:45:38

And I think, you know, self reflection, like you asked earlier, how do we make these changes in schools?

Speaker A 00:45:43

And I, and I told you that principals need to be self aware, mindful of their own feelings and I think every day I make a point of self reflecting even with my own children and how I'm going about with my 18 year old and my 16 year old daughter and self reflection is key and it's really about checking your ego at the door and, and being able to do that every single day.

Speaker A 00:46:05

Because you'll grow.

Speaker B 00:46:06

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B 00:46:06

And it sounds so easy when we talk about it, doesn't it?

Speaker A 00:46:10

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:46:10

Because emotions are hard.

Speaker A 00:46:11

Emotions are hard and that's why they need to be taught and that's why, you know, starting at an early age, we need to teach kids the science behind the emotions and we need to teach the adult the science behind emotions.

Speaker A 00:46:23

Because it really is brain science, it comes down to brain science.

Speaker A 00:46:26

It's all, emotions are all up here year.

Speaker A 00:46:29

And I think, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B 00:46:31

And I think the other thing is, is just to remember that each day is going to be different as well.

Speaker B 00:46:34

Because I think, you know, we like to say we understand it more, we get better at it and then there's a day where it doesn't quite work or, you know, you get involved in something you don't want to and I think just understanding how that works as well can be, can be a really important facet too.

Speaker B 00:46:48

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:46:48

So just thinking back to my kids and some of the Things that we sort of go around as well.

Speaker B 00:46:55

Is there a resource that you'd like to share?

Speaker B 00:46:57

And this can be anything professional or personal from a song, video, book, podcast, film, but something that, yeah, you'd like to share, which has had an impact in some way or another.

Speaker A 00:47:07

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:47:08

You know what?

Speaker A 00:47:08

I think what I want to share is for people to dive into my world.

Speaker A 00:47:13

You know, I've got a new website called emotional schools.com.

Speaker A 00:47:17

i think I just want people to dive into it.

Speaker A 00:47:21

I think anything by Brene Brown around vulnerability, it starts there, especially for men.

Speaker A 00:47:27

We typically are afraid to be vulnerable and to acknowledge that we're having feelings and that our emotions are, you know, taking root and influencing what we do.

Speaker A 00:47:40

Because, you know, we're either.

Speaker A 00:47:42

I watched Bill Burry, he's a comedian, and he went on, he goes, we're either angry or we're fine.

Speaker A 00:47:46

And, you know, and all that stuff in the middle, we're not allowed to have.

Speaker A 00:47:50

And I mean, he said something different that's not appropriate.

Speaker A 00:47:52

But, you know, at the end of the day, I think men really need to buy a Brene Brown's latest book.

Speaker A 00:48:02

Actually, I don't even know if it's the latest anymore, but Atlas of the Heart, it talks about the family of emotions.

Speaker A 00:48:07

It really talks about vulnerability.

Speaker A 00:48:09

And we need to learn how to be vulnerability, especially because men are in a lot of leadership positions, and I know that's changing.

Speaker A 00:48:16

But, you know, the more we understand our own vulnerability and our own own emotions, our families and our kids and our.

Speaker A 00:48:24

And our people are going to be better for it.

Speaker B 00:48:27

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker B 00:48:29

And we'll have links to these things as well on the show notes so people can find them.

Speaker B 00:48:32

So that's be fantastic.

Speaker B 00:48:34

So obviously, the acronym FIRE is important to us here, Education on fire.

Speaker B 00:48:39

And by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience, and empowerment.

Speaker B 00:48:43

I'm always curious, what is it that strikes you when you hear that, either individually or as a collective group of words?

Speaker A 00:48:51

Well, right away, I go to resilience.

Speaker A 00:48:54

I think our whole podcast that we just did, I go back to Mr.

Speaker A 00:48:58

Riley and I go back to free and structured play.

Speaker A 00:49:01

And we need to, again, help kids learn how to be resilient and to persevere.

Speaker A 00:49:10

And when they do that, when kids can become more resilient and they will be inspired and they will do great things.

Speaker A 00:49:17

And so, yeah, you did you mean to do that in your podcast to talk about that acronym?

Speaker A 00:49:23

Because you did.

Speaker B 00:49:24

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:49:25

You nailed it.

Speaker B 00:49:27

The amazing thing about it is I.

Speaker B 00:49:29

That wasn't the Original reason the name came up, that wasn't how it was generated originally, and it actually came from a conversation I had with my daughter.

Speaker B 00:49:36

We were in the car coming back from a gym session, and we were just sort of talking generally.

Speaker B 00:49:41

People were asking me about it, and I was sort of thinking of a way of just sort of structuring some parts of the conversation.

Speaker B 00:49:46

This is a way back, actually, and.

Speaker B 00:49:49

And that's actually her that started to piece that together.

Speaker B 00:49:51

I mean, she's 17 now, so she would have only been in her sort of early teens or something at the time, maybe.

Speaker B 00:49:56

But it just.

Speaker B 00:49:56

I just thought it was interesting from someone at that age going through the school system, that these were sort of important things which sort of came out of.

Speaker B 00:50:04

Out of her imagination in her world, rather than me thinking about it from a more analytical point of view or a podcasting point of view or whatever.

Speaker B 00:50:12

So, yeah, I sort of love that sort of amalgamation of real life is what is sort of fitting it into the.

Speaker B 00:50:18

The way it might fit within education.

Speaker A 00:50:20

And that's exactly why I love education, because our kids are brilliant.

Speaker A 00:50:24

They are 4 years old, 5 years old, 17.

Speaker A 00:50:28

They say some very profound things, and we have a lot to learn from.

Speaker B 00:50:31

Them that they do.

Speaker B 00:50:32

And.

Speaker B 00:50:33

And I think that key thing is just being able to listen, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:50:36

And making sure that we do listen and being in.

Speaker B 00:50:38

And I think all those things that we've touched on today, from the emotional intelligence, the understanding your emotions in terms of being aware of yourself and other people in the environment that you want to work in and set up for our kids, is.

Speaker B 00:50:50

Is a really important thing.

Speaker B 00:50:51

So, leroy, thank you so much for sharing all of this.

Speaker B 00:50:54

It's fascinating to hear your story in the way that you're working now and.

Speaker B 00:50:57

And how you.

Speaker B 00:50:58

You sort of pulled all those things together.

Speaker B 00:51:00

So keep up the great work.

Speaker B 00:51:01

And, yeah, we look forward to chatting to you again.

Speaker A 00:51:04

You bet.

Speaker A 00:51:05

Thanks, Mark.

Speaker B 00:51:06

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.