Can AI create an engaging summary of a book focused interview?
In advance of our Ger Graus season which will be based on his book Through a Different Lens – Lessons from a Life in Education I have created a summary podcast of our previous conversation (Ep 439) using NotebookLM. This is as – described on it’s website – ‘the AI research tool and thinking partner that can analyze your sources, turn complexity into clarity and transform your content’.
You will hear 2 AI voices discuss and summarise our conversation about Ger’s book.
Why do this? Partly as a quick recap before we start the Ger Graus season but also to help me understand what is currently possible with AI in advance of our Education on Fire LIVE Stream shows that will focus on AI in education.
To keep up to date with everything we are doing and download our FREE top 10 resources pdf please visit https://www.educationonfire.com/
Transcript
Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast.
Speaker AThe place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.
Speaker AListen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.
Speaker AHello, welcome back to Education on Fire.
Speaker AGreat to be back with you.
Speaker AWe've got a slightly different show today because we've got a couple of things coming up and I thought I wanted to just experiment a little bit, try something a little bit new.
Speaker AAnd as I mentioned last week, we've got a short season come up with Professor Dr. G, and that's going to be broken down into his book through a different lens, Lessons from a Life in Education.
Speaker ASo what I've decided to do today is I've actually created an AI version with two main sources, the YouTube channel and the interview that I did on Education on Fire and also his website.
Speaker ANow, I wanted to do this to see what the results would be.
Speaker AIt's pretty accurate, it's pretty interesting.
Speaker AThere's a little bit of confusion in terms of the, the pronunciation of some of the names and there's a couple of things which are educational and fire related which they've put.
Speaker AIt's something that Gare's actually quoted from, which isn't quite accurate, but generally speaking, it's very interesting and it's a great summary of, of what Gare is all about and what's actually involved in his book.
Speaker ABut the other reason for doing this is the fact that we're going to have part, as part of our live streams, an actual season focused on AI and what's possible and how people are using it.
Speaker ASo I wanted to combine these two ideas, put them together today in this episode one to see what you thought about the outcome, but also for me to play around with this new technology so that when I have these conversations on the live stream, I've got some real practical insider knowledge, as it were.
Speaker ANow, I use AI quite a lot for various things, but I wanted to do it so you could actually be part of it, hear it, understand what was going on.
Speaker AAnd like I said, it comes from my interview with Gare in the past and his website.
Speaker ASo I hope you find this very interesting.
Speaker ALet me know what you think, especially if you're going to show up on the live shows.
Speaker AWe can continue this conversation there.
Speaker AI'm really excited to sort of see where all this goes.
Speaker AAI is not going anywhere.
Speaker AIt's going to be an integral part of what we do now, while I wouldn't produce a podcast every week with AI.
Speaker AThe fact that you can have these two hosts that are having a conversation and debating that the talking points of this book is just amazing.
Speaker AAnd I think it's actually quite engaging.
Speaker ASo I really hope you enjoy that.
Speaker ASo.
Speaker ASo it's gonna be really interesting to hear people, companies, how they're using it within education, how they're using it for tutoring.
Speaker ASo many different areas that I think will be fascinating for you to hear, based on the fact that we've actually created this whole show based on that.
Speaker ANow, if you want to see a video version or sort of the visual side of these things, I've created that as well.
Speaker AAnd that's going to be on the YouTube channel, which you can get to@educationonfire.com YouTube.
Speaker ALet me know what you think.
Speaker ACan't wait to hear more about what this is going to look like when I chat to some of my guests on those live streams coming up in the next month or so.
Speaker AAnd for now, really hope you enjoy this and we'll catch you again very, very soon.
Speaker BWelcome to the Deep Dive, your shortcut to being well informed.
Speaker BToday we're diving into, well, a really fascinating perspective on modern education.
Speaker BWe're looking through the lens of a true visionary.
Speaker BAnd I want to start with something he believes deeply, Professor Dr. Jur Grouse Ope.
Speaker BHe says children can only aspire to what they know exists.
Speaker BJust let that sink in for a moment.
Speaker BIt really frames our discussion today about how education can either open doors or perhaps keep them closed.
Speaker CAbsolutely.
Speaker CAnd Professor Grouse is the perfect person to guide this conversation.
Speaker CI mean, his background speaks for itself.
Speaker CFirst global director of education at KidZania, founding CEO of the children's university.
Speaker CPlus he received an OBE back in 2014 for his services to children.
Speaker CQuite an honor.
Speaker COur main source today is his upcoming book, Through A Different Lessons From a Life in education.
Speaker CIt's out April 11, 2025, and it's already generating quite a buzz.
Speaker CSo our mission really is to unpack his insights, the tough questions he asks and the stories he tells.
Speaker CWe want to get a fresh take on what education could be.
Speaker CYou know, exploring ideas like experience is everything or learning as a satellite navigation system to better places in life.
Speaker BThat idea of learning as a SAT nav, I like that it implies guidance, a journey towards something better.
Speaker BBut he doesn't just offer nice ideas, does he?
Speaker BHe throws down a challenge.
Speaker BHe asks us, are you ready to challenge the definition of insanity?
Speaker BDoing the same thing over and over again.
Speaker BAnd expecting different results.
Speaker BThat's pretty direct, especially for anyone involved in education.
Speaker BWhere do we even start with that?
Speaker CWell, it's a powerful starting gun, isn't it?
Speaker CIt forces you to stop and think.
Speaker CHis whole philosophy, he sums it up himself, is Jean Jacques Rousseau meets Willy Wonka, which I think is just brilliant.
Speaker CYou've got Rousseau's deep thinking about child development, that respect for the child's nature, and then Wonka brings the magic, the experience, the fun.
Speaker CSo the starting point, the leverage is right there.
Speaker CCombining that profound understanding with, you know, wonder and hands on opportunity, creating places where kids want to discover.
Speaker BRousseau meets Willy Wonka.
Speaker BYeah, that captures it perfectly.
Speaker BA blend of serious thought and playful execution.
Speaker BAnd that seems to be the essence of his new book through a different lens.
Speaker BIt's being called a literary sensation, something that really captivates readers.
Speaker BApparently he wasn't keen on writing it at first.
Speaker BPreferred recording conversations.
Speaker CThat's right.
Speaker CWhich totally fits his focus on interaction, on dialogue.
Speaker CHe didn't want some dry academic text.
Speaker CHe actually said it's for anyone who likes children to read, maybe on their holidays.
Speaker CThat tells you a lot, doesn't it?
Speaker BIt really does.
Speaker BIt says he wants these ideas out there, accessible to everyone, parents, teachers, anyone who cares about kids.
Speaker BNot just for the experts.
Speaker CExactly.
Speaker CAnd the early feedback shows it's hitting that mark.
Speaker CRichard Taylor, a teacher for 40 years, called Jura a pioneer, a visionary, so you can't help but glow under his light.
Speaker CHigh praise.
Speaker CMohammed Isop from Tahitul Education Trust agreed.
Speaker CAnd Sergei Kazaretsky in Moscow called him the best broadcasters of the children's voice.
Speaker CIt's quite something.
Speaker BBest broadcaster of the children's voice.
Speaker BWow.
Speaker BThat leads us nicely to a key distinction he makes, one that sort of reframes everything.
Speaker BHe says education is 0 to 99, schooling is a number of years.
Speaker BAs part of that, that prepares you to educate yourself better for the rest of your life.
Speaker BThat's a big idea, isn't it?
Speaker BEducation is lifelong.
Speaker BSchooling is preparation.
Speaker BIt's absolutely fundamental.
Speaker BIt changes the whole purpose of school.
Speaker BIt's not just about cramming facts for exams, it's about lighting that fire for lifelong learning.
Speaker BAnd this is where his critique comes in.
Speaker BHe argues the system's accountability has shifted, shifted away from the child and onto, well, the system itself.
Speaker BMetrics, targets, lead tables.
Speaker BHe points out, you know, how rarely the word child even appears in official documents, like Ofsted reviews here in the uk.
Speaker BIt's like.
Speaker CLike his analogy talking about hospitals without mentioning patients.
Speaker BExactly.
Speaker BIt's that stark.
Speaker BAnd the danger is obvious.
Speaker BThe system starts serving itself, not the kids.
Speaker CIt's supposed to be for that hospital analogy.
Speaker CYeah, it really drives the point home.
Speaker CSo if we need to shift accountability back to the child, how do we actually do that?
Speaker CHow do we see the individual?
Speaker CThis brings us to personalization.
Speaker CHe says we're in an age of personalization.
Speaker CYou need to get to know your children better beyond the grade.
Speaker CSounds right, but how does that work in practice with big classes and targets?
Speaker CWell, it directly impacts engagement.
Speaker CHe tells this great story about moving from a small, quite well off school to a big disadvantaged one in Hull.
Speaker CHis teachers there, brilliant subject experts, but they realized they were only really reaching the, you know, top 25%.
Speaker CThe shift came when they focused on becoming brilliant teachers of children, not just brilliant teachers of say, maths or history.
Speaker CIt meant understanding the whole child, their background, their worries, their smart.
Speaker CIt wasn't about lowering standards, it was about finding the right path for each child to reach those standards.
Speaker CThat's real personalization.
Speaker BMeeting the child where they are makes sense.
Speaker BAnd beneath that there has to be trust, right?
Speaker BHe quotes Carla Rellati.
Speaker BWe must trust the children as much as they trust us.
Speaker BBut as you say, the system often feels built on control.
Speaker BHe mentions things like kids not being allowed to talk in corridors or really strict toilet rules.
Speaker BCalls it nonsense that needs to stop.
Speaker BWhy is that control culture so damaging?
Speaker CBecause it stifles everything that matters.
Speaker CAutonomy, curiosity, motivation.
Speaker CWhen you operate on control, you're basically teaching kids their voice doesn't count, that following rules is more important than thinking for themselves.
Speaker CThese small rules, like corridor silence, they're symptoms of a bigger problem.
Speaker CTrying to manage behavior by clamping down.
Speaker CInstead of building self regulation through respect, it chips away at their self worth, makes them afraid to explore, limits their aspirations before they even start, undermines their self worth.
Speaker BThat's a key point.
Speaker BAnd who's central to building that worth and guiding them?
Speaker BThe teacher Grouse makes this bold claim.
Speaker BTeachers should rank above doctors and lawyers.
Speaker BWhy does he place them so highly?
Speaker CLook, it's not about putting other professions down.
Speaker CIt's about recognizing who builds the foundation for all other professions.
Speaker CHis logic is simple.
Speaker CWithout them, there wouldn't be any doctors and lawyers.
Speaker CTeachers shape the minds, the character, the skills of everyone else.
Speaker CThey're laying the groundwork for society's future.
Speaker CValuing them properly sends a powerful message and hopefully attracts the best people to do that crucial job.
Speaker BAnd he's seen the impact firsthand.
Speaker BHis German teacher, Neil Birkens, opened gateways for him.
Speaker BHe talks about Richard Taylor, whose Shakespeare lessons were so good kids didn't want to leave on a Friday.
Speaker BThese teachers weren't just delivering content, they were igniting something.
Speaker BHow can teachers today, facing all the pressures, capture some of that gift gateway opening magic?
Speaker CAh, the million dollar question.
Speaker CGrouse would say it starts with connection, really knowing the child, not just their test scores.
Speaker CFinding that hook, that relevance that makes the subject come alive for them.
Speaker CHe challenges teachers, doesn't he?
Speaker C50 years from now, somebody will say your name.
Speaker CWhat they say is up to you.
Speaker CIt's a reminder.
Speaker CThey're dealing with people, not numbers.
Speaker CThey're role models, setting the tone.
Speaker CEven with a packed curriculum, a teacher's passion, their willingness to listen, that can be the gateway.
Speaker CIt's about bringing their humanity into the classroom.
Speaker BBringing their humanity.
Speaker BI like that.
Speaker BSo moving beyond grades, focusing on people, fostering aspiration, trusting kids, empowering teachers.
Speaker BWhat does this look like when it all comes together?
Speaker BThis brings us to experience based learning.
Speaker BKidzania is the obvious example from his work.
Speaker BThat interactive city for children, roleplaying over 100 careers.
Speaker BHillary McAuley called it providing real life inspirational eye openers.
Speaker BWhat makes those eye openers so powerful?
Speaker CIt's the immersion.
Speaker CIt makes learning real, tangible.
Speaker CYou're not just reading about being a firefighter, you are one using the equipment, making decisions.
Speaker CIt gives kids concrete examples of what's possible, expanding that what they know exists idea we started with.
Speaker CAnd crucially, as Grau says, it creates space to get it wrong and then learn to get it right.
Speaker CNo red pens, just learning through doing.
Speaker CIt's the opposite of that feeling.
Speaker CYou found 80% of kids being in school.
Speaker CBecause I have to.
Speaker CThis is about exploration, about finding joy in the challenge.
Speaker BThat joy seems so often missing, doesn't it?
Speaker BThinking globally now, Grouse isn't afraid to critique, mentioning a post colonial arrogance in English education, a reluctance to learn from others.
Speaker BBut he points to examples elsewhere.
Speaker BWhat can we learn from other countries?
Speaker CYeah, that postcolonial arrogance can really hold us back.
Speaker CLook at Sharjah for example.
Speaker CThey've declared early years singularly the most important aspect and are investing heavily.
Speaker CThey're playing the long game, building strong foundations.
Speaker CThat's a powerful lesson.
Speaker COr CIGI University in Malaysia, making vocational elements mandatory for everyone.
Speaker COr even Singapore, famous for academics.
Speaker CRight now, shifting away from just teach and test towards more experiential learning.
Speaker BEven Singapore's moving that way.
Speaker BThat's telling.
Speaker CIt really is.
Speaker CIt shows a global shift towards understanding that Education needs to be broader, more engaging, more about real world application than just memorization.
Speaker CThese places show it can be done.
Speaker BSo experiential learning is key.
Speaker BWhat about technology, often touted as the big solution?
Speaker BWhat's Grass's take?
Speaker CHe's very pragmatic.
Speaker CHe says technology is not the answer, it is a means to a solution.
Speaker CHe sees its huge potential, calls it potentially the most democratizing factor.
Speaker CBut.
Speaker CAnd it's big, but only if there's equity in access.
Speaker CCovid showed us the massive digital divide.
Speaker CLots of kids lack devices, reliable Internet, even the basic skills.
Speaker CSo until we fix that foundational access, technology helps some, but it doesn't democratize anything for everyone.
Speaker CIt needs careful thought, not just chucking laptops at the problem.
Speaker BRight.
Speaker BNot a silver bullet unless everyone has access.
Speaker BHe also touches on the increasing economic angle, narrowing the curriculum, pushing stem, maybe at the expense of arts or humanities, driven by political short termism.
Speaker BAnd he shares that provocative line from his grandfather.
Speaker BPoliticians hate well educated societies because they might not vote for Brexit specifically.
Speaker BSpecific, yes, but what's the universal point there?
Speaker CWell, that Brexit line certainly grabs your attention, but the broader point is universal.
Speaker CAbsolutely.
Speaker CIt's about critical thinking.
Speaker CSocieties that are genuinely well educated, that encourage questioning and analysis across all fields, not just economically useful ones.
Speaker CWell, they're harder to sway with simplistic arguments.
Speaker CThey think more independently.
Speaker CWhen education gets narrowed down to just job skills by short term politics, it risks creating a less engaged, less critical citizenry.
Speaker CIt's a subtle but important point about the relationship between how we educate and the kind of society we become.
Speaker BThat definitely gives you pause for thought.
Speaker BShifting gears slightly to something more personal.
Speaker BGrouse's own recent experience adds another layer.
Speaker BHe talks about getting his cancer diagnosis just days after finishing his book manuscript.
Speaker BDecember 4th manuscript done, December 7th diagnosis.
Speaker BHe said writing the book, that deep reflection actually made him feel better at prioritizing, more resilient, and and helped him cope.
Speaker BWhat does that tell us about reflection?
Speaker CIt's incredibly powerful, isn't it?
Speaker CIt shows that taking time to really process your life, your work, your beliefs, it builds serious inner strength.
Speaker CIt clarifies what matters in our busy lives.
Speaker CReflection can feel like a luxury, but his story suggests it's actually essential for resilience, for navigating tough times.
Speaker CIt grounds you.
Speaker BAnd he flips the script on hindsight too.
Speaker BUsually it's about regret.
Speaker BBut he asks with the benefit of hindsight, what would you have done?
Speaker BThe same.
Speaker CI really like that it focuses on affirming what work.
Speaker CWhat values held true exactly.
Speaker BIt turns hindsight into a positive tool.
Speaker BAnd that feeds into his idea of creating a movement of like mindedness.
Speaker BHe believes change comes from chipping away, having these conversations, challenging the language we use.
Speaker BDon't just aim for good or outstanding, he says, aim for wonderful, magical, fantastic.
Speaker BThat's not just words.
Speaker BIt's about lifting our collective ambition for what education can be.
Speaker BWonderful, magical, fantastic.
Speaker BBut achieving that takes real commitment, doesn't it?
Speaker BHe's blunt about needing to adapt schools to kids, not kids to budgets.
Speaker BEven if it means tough talks about funding and tax, he says can't achieve Scandinavian standards of education funded by American levels of taxation doesn't work.
Speaker BWhat's the core message about courage there?
Speaker CThe message is pretty quality costs.
Speaker CTransformative education needs real investment and a long term view.
Speaker CThe courage needed is political and societal.
Speaker CThe courage to prioritize children's futures over short term budgets, to have honest debates about how we fund this vital public good.
Speaker CIt's about aligning our spending with our stated values about children and their potential.
Speaker BAnd finally circling back to teachers.
Speaker BHe stresses the need to build in time for reflection for them.
Speaker BTime to think about the youngsters, think about them themselves.
Speaker BHe calls teaching the best profession, filled with the best people.
Speaker BWhy is that reflection time so crucial?
Speaker CBecause it breaks the cycle of just reacting, just getting through the day.
Speaker CReflection allows teachers to be intentional, to analyze, to adapt, to reconnect with why they teach.
Speaker CIt prevents burnout, fosters growth and ultimately makes them better teachers.
Speaker CA reflective teacher is a more empathetic, more creative, more inspiring teacher.
Speaker CIt fuels their ability to to be those gateways we talked about.
Speaker BWhat a rich discussion.
Speaker BGeargrass really does offer a different lens, urging us back to the child, championing experience, trust and truly valuing teachers not just as instructors, but as firelighters.
Speaker CAbsolutely.
Speaker CIt perfectly sums up his philosophy.
Speaker CThat famous quote, education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.
Speaker BSo as we wrap up, here's something for you, our listener, to reflect on.
Speaker BInspired by Gur grass vision, what's one small thing you could do, maybe today, maybe this week, in your work, your family, your community?
Speaker BOne small thing to help light a fire, build trust, or just expand a child's view.
Speaker BWhat's possible, what they might aspire to.
Speaker BThank you for joining us for this deep dive.
Speaker BWe hope you'll keep exploring these ideas and look out for it through a different lens next year.
Speaker AThanks for listening to the Education on Fire podcast for more information of each episode and to get in touch.
Speaker AGo to educationonfire.com Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.