GGGG Ep 10 – The Future of Higher Education

Mark Taylor 00:00:23

Hello and welcome back to the Education on Far podcast. This is episode 10, the final episode of the Ger Graus Gets Gritty series. If you haven't got a copy of the book or read it yet, please do go and check that out through a different lens. Lessons from a Life in Education link will be in the description. And a massive thank you to Ger for his enthusiasm and insights and all of his support through this. We've taken each of the chapters of the book. Those were the first seven episodes of this series. In the last three, I've been about early years, schooling and then obviously today's final one on higher education. We have one more final thing. If you're listening on the audio podcast, why not go to YouTube? That's educationonfire.com/YouTube and we've got all of these episodes there on video. And also we're going to have one final live podcast coming up where you can see interactions from people that wanted to see that. So if we listen to this live, that's on Wednesday 3rd June at 5pm here in the UK. If you're watching on a replay and you've missed it, you can still check that video out and see how we kind of round up the whole thing. Some Q A with Ger and just really sort of highlighting the the whole series call. So I really hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have. We're really celebrating 10 years of education on fire. 500 Episodes we're about to reach in the next few weeks. That was the point of doing this series and a chance to have some important and really amazing conversations around this. And I think Ger has been able to do this and with the conversations I've had on social media and the people emailing in, I think we've really done ourselves proud, but also given ourselves some great starting points moving forward, but really analyzing where we are in terms of the education both here in the uk, but also around the world. So thank you so much for this and I really hope you enjoy this. Our final episode of the Gare Grouse Gets Gritty Series. Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast. The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hello and welcome back to what seems like the end of our chapter. It's the episode 10 of our Ger Graus Gets Gritty series. In so Many ways it feels like the beginning because we've talked a lot about 0 to 11, 0 to 18, and we're going to be talking about further education today and the idea of lifelong learning, the experiences that children and young people have as they go post 18. But I think why don't we start with that overview of where we think we've, where we've got to gear and maybe, I guess, any running themes that we've sort of established.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:03:07

Thanks, Mark. Well, I think it's, it's an interesting one because, I mean, I go back to, to my friend Carlo Rinaldi, who always, although in early years classed as an early years expert, she, she always referenced 0 to 99 or funnily enough, in the case of David Attenborough, 0 to 100 plus. Now I think, did you see, by the way, that Lego changed its labeling? It always used to have 0 to 99 on its labels, but it now has 0 to 100 plus on it. I thought that was, I thought that was a wonderful move. And, and we don't. We, I suppose we see the, in schooling terms, not in educational terms, but in schooling terms, 18 and 16 in many countries is a very important, are very important ages because that is when the statutory element of it finishes. And we perhaps think that everything after that is a luxury or is only there for the privileged. I think both things are wrong, both morally and economically, because if you don't continue to give the opportunity to educate, you have a problem. And I think the other thing is that the 99 bit I quite like because there is also an assumption that I've reached that milestone, that once you're 65 in most countries that you might as well just go off and do some knitting somewhere or whatever else and not concern yourself or play golf or whatever. It is a waste of a good walk, I think was a quote. So I think there is this issue of what is education and what it's for. And I suppose that takes us back to that theme about that difference between schooling and education and the fact that education also, perhaps the older we get, the more deliberately, from a selfish point of view, the more deliberately personal it becomes. Maybe we are in charge of our choices more or maybe that's just a very middle class statement, I'm not sure, but I think there are issues around that. I mean, and maybe, just maybe the older we get, the further we can move away from being schooled and the more we can move towards educating ourselves if our contexts allow, allow for that to happen. I still, I was listening Again the other day to the conversation we had with Christian Fabi of the director of Fondancy on the Rage youe Children. And the thing that strikes me in a way about the whole of the series has been that we try very hard, not you and I, but the system tries very hard to compartmentalize that bit about early years and primary and secondary and post 16 and university and whatever else. And actually it's the same person we're talking about. And I just wondered if there would be an amazing piece of research. Contact Mark, if you're interested in leading on this research. It would be an interesting piece of research. If you had the best of everything at every stage, how much more of an educated 99 year old would you be? Or maybe a better 99 year old, who knows? So there is, there is a, you know, it's the last of the series, 7up, coming up on ITV later in the year. I think there is something to be done very longitudinally to actually see if you had, which is, in my opinion, if you had the highest quality early years experiences through Reggio Emilia, you then went to the primary schools in Finland and the secondary schools God knows where. And perhaps you didn't go to university or perhaps you did, but even if you had an apprenticeship, it would be with the most caring, the best company. And if you went to university, you went to, I don't know, you went to Oxford, Cambridge or whatever else is out there, what would you end up like? And it would be particularly interesting, I think, if we took the baby who was born in disadvantaged circumstances as opposed to the ones who would have had that, probably, or most of that anyway. I just think that it's almost like I have to be careful now I do it. But it's almost like the education piece, the lifelong education piece should become a researched social experiment in the nicest possible way, in the best possible way.

Mark Taylor 00:08:11

Yeah. And I think the other thing that I've come to see in recent times as well is that people older, so whether it's sort of parents or people in middle aged inverted commas or even as they go into retirement, starting to think about studying again for the fun, for, for the interest to sort of develop themselves and thinking that way, there is often, and I think this is really sad, there's often some kind of scar tissue about why they're doing it, their learning experience from when they're young and how they go about doing it, because they feel it should look a certain way based on their experience and they've got this kind of part of them which is kind of like, no, I can just do this for myself now I want to learn, I want to be able to share, I want to be able to help people but there's that sort of historical feeling of kind of oh, but learning feels like this from their school days or from whatever experience they had growing up I.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:09:08

Think there is an issue about post 16 and universities in particular it. It feels like schooling and because actually I think increasingly and I think some of that's got to do with politics Some of that's. A lot of that's got to do with finance and the business like behavior of higher education institutions But. But I think it's probably along the lines of when you are at university because of the pressures of having to get a job afterwards, it probably doesn't feel like much fun and when you are more comfortable then and you are of a certain socioeconomic standing, then at the age of 45 you might think hey, I could go back to university. So I think there's a narrative to be discovered around this I think there are some key questions for me about higher education One is that the students pay. Now I have my views on whether that's right or not but we are where we are My views are they shouldn't, but we are where we are but then if you have the climate of I pay for something then the institutions, the universities and the politics around that should treat those students much better because they are then declined Imagine going to John Lewis's and being told and you want to buy, I don't know, you want to buy a TV speakers and whatever else with it and you've bought the telly and then they turn around and say oh by the way, now the rest is no longer for sale. There are universities canceling courses mid course for people who have paid I think the behavior of universities, this is a generalization, there are exceptions. The behavior of universities towards their students is morally reprehensible I think it's appalling and it's purely based on finance and again we go back to I'm increasingly, as I become more and more like Victor Meldrew I'm increasingly beginning to think that there needs to be some form of renationalization of the higher education agenda because I think many higher education institutions are about making money what do they do with the money they get? What do they do? Are they reinvesting that in students or are they reinvesting that in owning half of a city somewhere in the north of England? I'm not understanding and I'm sure some finance director would pooh, pooh all this, but I'd quite like to have the moral discussion with them and the discussion of relationships between the provider and the client because that's essentially mark what your and my children have become. Except that they have no say whatsoever on value for money. They're not even asked, they don't even get a chance to vote. It is singularly. And then the university spout a lot about freedom of speech and all those things, but the essence of the relationship between the institution and its client is almost non existent. There are exceptions. There are. I mean from personal experience, there are universities, what they do with their monies, I don't know. I haven't got that insight. But from personal experience, I've had three children. One went to Liverpool a longer time ago, she graduated quite a little while ago. And I think the times were different. Even ten years ago, I think the times were different. Two of them have been to Oxford, one is still there. And I think the way that Oxford interacts with its students, the college system, the pastoral care, even the recruitment from the student's point of view, from what I hear and learn, is infinitely more personal. And in an age of personalization, just like schools, universities will have to behave in a more personalized manner. But I hear at the same time stories of good friends who are professors at Australian universities where what they're basically doing now is give online lectures to 800 people. So I think it's interesting, I'm in my mind distinguishing very clearly in higher education pre and post Covid. Now, interestingly, my son was an Oxford student pre Covid. My youngest daughter is an Oxford student post Covid. And I think the difference between the two is hard to distinguish, whereas at other universities it is very easy to distinguish. And I have. So I think in a long winded way, I think the relationship and the responsibility, the quality responsibility and the moral responsibility exercised by higher education in general, I recognize this as a generalization, is simply not good enough because there is this unbelievable continuous aggressive focus on making money. Now why they're making money, whether it's to fill the potholes as in the educational potholes, I don't know. But there have to be better ways. One of the things you can't do is expand all your energy on filling the potholes and forget that they're currently drivers on the road. It just doesn't wash. And I think we have a real problem. I think the other problem we have is, and I'm kind of sad about this Because I think the initial sentiment was the right sentiment. So in the, in, in the 90s, 1997, when, when the Blair government came in and there was money in the system, it became the target to send percentages of young people to university, and particularly those associated from disadvantaged areas, socioeconomically disadvantaged young people. And it felt right at the time because it, And I'm. I am absolutely convinced it was done for the right reasons. That is, it was there to lift the societal bar, the educational bar. Of course, with hindsight, and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but with hindsight you might. I would now argue that too many went to university and there were not enough other routes. So it became a little bit like you either go to university or you failed, really. And as I say, hindsight's a wonderful thing. But there is something about, perhaps the apprenticeship route should have started earlier, should have been taken more seriously earlier, and we could go back to the Thatcher days and go, there she goes again. Because maybe they should never have been abolished. But what's quite clear to me is if big industry wants the right people to work with them and for them, they're going to need to come off the fence and invest. Invest might not necessarily be financial, it might be in all sorts of other ways, but they're going to need to take an active interest. So there was that bit about everybody goes to university is the solution. No, it isn't. And I keep going back to this personalization. There need to be different routes for different talents. And this is where the lifelong learning thing comes into it at different times. So, as a Man United supporter, it pained me to watch Manchester City win the FA cup on Saturday. And I was very interested to see an interview with Antoine Semenya, the man who scored that amazing goal.

Mark Taylor 00:17:49

Yeah.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:17:51

And basically the interview was something along the lines of, I don't know, eight years ago you were playing for Southend or whatever it was, and look at you now. You've scored the winning goal in an FA cup final. And I thought, I did think at the time, wow, that's quite amazing, actually, because very often we hear of the route you discover to be talented very young. You go into the academy, you then work your way through the youth and you go into the B team and then you make your. The Phil Foden kind of thing. You make your debut when you're 17 or whatever and you become a first team player. And we've assumed a little bit like going to university, that that straight line is the route. And what the Semenya interview reminded Me of was that there are no straight lines. And in our system, we need to accommodate the fact that there are no straight lines. So I think there is. There are many things about the university system that can be addressed where we can be creative, where we can create better partnerships, where we can be more international. But the bit that's not negotiable is the relationship between the provider and the client, because that is where we are at. And that relationship is, from the provider's point of view, disrespectful, as a generalization.

Mark Taylor 00:19:11

And we've talked a lot over these 10 episodes about sort of the two sides of that coin, you know, whether we'd like the education system to look like this. But then you've got government and Ofsted and people having to work in a certain way in order for it to fulfill its criteria, the things it has to do just to survive. And the repercussions of not doing that are very serious. This is probably a good point to say that, as we initially intended, we were going to have at least one guest on this episode because we wanted to have people within the higher education world actually telling us what's possible, what the realities are. And like you say, it's a. It's a modern world now, they could look very different. And I was quite excited about maybe where that could go, as with two children who sort of going through university at the moment. However, what we found was, was that we had people who were really interested and keen on what we were doing, but didn't feel that they were in a position to come publicly and talk about that for whether it's repercussions of their job, whether they're associated with certain institutions where they couldn't be seen to say things which may be upset the apple cart in a very easy way, or maybe it would be worse than that. And I think that's a very sad situation to be, because for all the things that you said and what's possible and how things should work, that the people actually working within these institutions obviously feel like that isn't possible. And therefore the people who could make change, as in the people working within these institutions don't feel they have a say or the ability to do that, because there's a power at B higher up that are actually controlling all these things, like, say, whether it's the purse strings or the political strings. From that point of view, there's.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:20:54

There is a very clear fear of reprisal of some sort and at quite senior level, and I think. So when we spout a lot about freedom of speech and the big debate that goes on. Apparently we exclude our own people in this. That's what it feels like. I think it's very sad because I think genuine improvement doesn't come top down. Genuine improvement, sustainable improvement is something that is organically created, as it were, that becomes a culture. If you have a culture of fear, really, you are never going to. You might improve in some fabricated league table. We've got more students than anybody else. We've got more foreign students than anybody else. We're in four countries. Well, whatever your measures are, but actually going back to that quality of relationship between the provider and the student, you will not be able to affect improvement because you don't allow the debate for fear of criticism. And what you do is presumably you accuse people of being disloyal. Actually, you might argue that your fiercest critics could be your most loyal supporters. Oh my God. Right. And I think there are some big issues. I was shocked about that. So, yeah, it's true. We were going. We have talked to a number of people who felt uncomfortable to have an open discussion.

Mark Taylor 00:22:48

And that really is. That really is a sad state of affairs because it. I think for me, my biggest takeaway from all of our conversations is the fact that the one thing you can do is the conversation that you can have now. And that's either with your pupil at school, whether it's with the person at your university, whatever that happens to be. And you can make those differences on a human level in the way that you can. So maybe you can't change the course, maybe you can't change the system, but you can make those little things. And we need almost like an uprising from everybody to make the most of that. But it's very hard to make that sustainable change or systematic change if you're being told, but it still has to look this way. And I think at some point I thought we'd sort of, we'd uncover something which was kind of a little thread that we could pull out which would start to make that change or start to open that debate up. But it seems to be that it's quite stuck somewhere under a rock. And this. Even if you could find that thread, it's not an actually going to move very easily. And even if someone found they could move it, they're not going to want to, in case it literally makes that makes that rock move in a direction they can't then stop.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:23:54

And I think there, it's a thread that runs throughout, because I think you and I both know that there are a good number of academy trusts who've also got colleagues working there who would not come on a podcast like this and speak their mind.

Mark Taylor 00:24:09

Yeah.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:24:10

Because for fear of reprisal. And there are head teachers in schools that are not in academy trusts who would not come on a program like this for fear that Ofsted might be listening in. So. The word regime in quite a distasteful way springs to mind, really, because actually, we can't say what we think in the interest of the children, of the students, of the pupils, whatever we want to call them. We have to be careful because we are seen as disloyal. Now, what would be wrong for somebody to come along and say, this is how we're teaching at the moment? And I think if we did these two things, it would make it better. How is that disloyal? Disloyal. Hutu to the university, to the academy trusts or to the children? And it goes back to the point that I've made all along, is that our accountability is to the system and to the structure and not to the child, the pupil or the student. Because if the accountability were to the student, then universities would behave differently.

Mark Taylor 00:25:31

And I think also what you wouldn't get, we're recording this sort of the week after SATs, which I know isn't a university related or higher education related thing. They wouldn't be the conversations that I've heard all over the last few days, which is to people in young people in Year six saying, well done, as in, well done, you survived. Well done for taking the test that you had to do anyway. Well done for actually being able to get through all of that, which is just the most ridiculous thing. And then from that, whatever, whatever you think, giving out in that scenario, I mean, that just kind of tells you everything that you need to know from a. An emotional standpoint and a. And what people believe, even if you can't articulate it, what school's all about.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:26:15

And it's not, Mark, which is really important because that's. That's the reaction that would come out of sanctuary buildings or somewhere. It's not that you or I are against accountability. I just think we could do much better. Yeah. I think we could be better accountable and our accountability could lead to better things. At the moment, our accountability is like an old Polaroid camera. It takes pictures of a certain moment at a certain time. It doesn't take. It doesn't do anything sophisticated like video film clips on a phone or whatever else where you can see a start, a Middle and end. You can see development doesn't do any of that. It just takes the picture of Mark Taylor on a Monday morning at 9:56 click. That's who he is. And if he doesn't look right we'll condemn all those. It just doesn't make any sense what we're trying. So I think I'm all for accountability. I just think I'm not for shoddy accountability, that's all.

Mark Taylor 00:27:19

Exactly. I think my, my immediate thought, I mean it's not a new thought for me but was just that kind of. Is there anything that anyone found out during those tests last week which the teacher didn't know already and couldn't have just like say as an accountability exercise or a kind of we need data or whatever that happens to be because we're not saying none of that's important. But of course you'd know that and more is there is the, is the thing.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:27:44

But that goes back to the Carlo Rinaldi point and the Christian Fabi point of trust.

Mark Taylor 00:27:49

Yeah.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:27:50

Why are we over testing to this degree? We are over testing to disagree think because we don't trust. Think of the whole hoo ha during COVID when exams were essentially canceled. Think of the headlines, oh my God, these teachers, all these kids are going to get a stars. As if. And I'm sure there will have been a bit of that going on just like I'm sure that in the tests in some places there will be a bit of cheating going on. So that cancels out then, doesn't it really? I think we just need to take a bit more of a grown up view about these things and have proper discussions around this.

Mark Taylor 00:28:35

And so if we take ourselves back into that, into that higher education. So we sort of talked about the relationship between the universities and the, the clients as it were, the students and, and what they offer and, and also whether higher education is, is, is for everybody. But the sorts of experiences, the sorts of life learning that you get from being a university student around the academic I think is an important thing to touch on. And also the fact that in the here and now there are certain jobs, there are certain professions that you still need the degree for, but also then like say the MA and how far down that line you need to go to suddenly actually stand out enough to get those jobs which you can't get if you don't have those qualifications and that's university still seems the only way that you can get that in a traditional format.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:29:29

The mix. And it's a mix, it's a Very British thing. I think it's a matter of values. You know, it is still seen that going to university is the be all and end all. To the point where we renamed polytechnics universities. Why did we, why did we on earth did we do that? Because polytechnics were higher education institutions with a vocational angle. I. I think that was a backward step at the time, but it was all about this perceived creation of a level playing field, wasn't it? And I think that was a big mistake and I would applaud to, not just in renaming, but in values and sentiments, to go back to having polytechnics and having organizations. So as a linguist. So if I want to study East German literature, I go to a university. It's an academic pursuit and what I do with that afterwards, we'll come to those kind of things later on, if I want to become a translator or an interpreter, I go to a polytechnic. So in this country, to become an interpreter or a translator, in the late 1980s, early 1990s, you would have gone to Wolverhampton Polytechnic or to Salford to study East German literature, you would have probably gone to Oxford or to Cambridge, if you can get in. The point is, there's nothing wrong with that distinction, what that distinction offers. So the level playing field is not created up here. The level playing field is created for want of a better way of putting it down here. And it is about providing as many suitable and appropriate opportunities as possible to the highest possible quality at the lowest possible cost. And if that needs subsidizing, as far as I'm concerned, charge me a bit more tax and I'll pay for it. But that's a national debate of a different matter in many ways. So I think we're at that point, are we? And the other question to go to your point is, my question always is to children, why did you go to school? We should ask the question, why did you go to university? There's a piece of research in there and will the majority of students tell us to get a good job, or will they tell us to widen my horizons and end up in a place that is better than where I might have ended up? So if I really practically think of the benefits that my three children have had living away from home in Liverpool and in Oxford, in Oxford terms, everything that Oxford has to offer and the proximity of London, in Liverpool terms, everything that Liverpool as a city has to offer and the proximity of the northwest of England is much more than just going to a lecture at 10 o' clock on a Monday morning. And I think there's A very interesting, I'm sure it's been done somewhere, a very interesting piece of research. Because what of course also is happening is that the young people, the children of families who are disadvantaged, are very often now going to universities in their hometown so that they can live at home. So the question for me becomes is what does the loss of that, what I see as added value of not living at home, what is the cost of that? What is the opportunity cost of that? Are we looking into that? Are we only going to send youngsters to university if there is a job at the end of it? This is this whole reform nonsense about they insultingly call them Mickey Mouse courses. There are no Mickey Mouse. How dare they, the ill educated judge the educational provision. I mean, what's the country come to? There are no Mickey Mouse causes. There are courses that are unwisely over subscribed. Do we need criminologists? Absolutely. 100% We do. Do we need 100,000 criminologists? Probably not. So somebody, and perhaps this goes back to some kind of national overview or a better national somebody needs to look at those things and say yes, we need to. If universities are about jobs, then yes, we need this. But. But here are some restricted numbers and we'll share them across the universities. It can't be that hard with all the data that we've got. It just takes a couple of clever people to come up with those findings. It still begs the question for me, however. See, I'm probably of the old school and thinks that Mickey Mouse was wonderful. If the arts and music and philosophy and literature are Mickey Mouse courses, then Disney, please provide us with quite a few more drawings of the little mouse, because I'm a big supporter of that. I think it makes us better as a society, as a country, and they are industries that are productive, that are economically viable and important. But it begs again the question, how many media studies graduates do we need? Do we really need 100,000? So this nonsense of Mickey Mouse courses is. It's as offensive as it gets. Is there a need for a balance? There always is a need for a balance in whatever walk of life. And we need somebody independent to oversee this and make this happen. But of course, when you have a system where each university is in competition with every other university and the whole thing has become an economic again, I've said this many times, Mark, that we don't make educational decisions in this country, we make economic ones. Well, here is a classic example. Why do we have universities? Sometimes two universities in the same city offering very Similar courses. Somebody just needs, and at the same time, both those universities are in debt. Somebody needs to get hold of this and go, come on. Right, but, but, but, but the accountability and this is very important in all of this. And the accountability lies towards the young people, not towards the government, not towards the system and not towards the finance director.

Mark Taylor 00:36:37

And it reminds me a little bit. So I went to music College in the mid-90s and I was the first year that had what was, would have traditionally been sort of the performers course. I went there as a, as a training professional musician, but it became a degree course. It was then part of Westminster University. Even though it was a, it was a music college, they needed to be able to, for funding reasons, it needed to become a degree in order for the institution to survive. There was sort of an academic music course that was already there, but before you would have just gone and you would have got your, your diploma and you would have come out because you're being trained to be a professional musician. You know, at no point you, if you went for a job at an orchestra or you're going to DEP on the West End, did someone say, have you got your degree? Because this is going to make all the difference to your ability to be a professional musician. The first time I was ever asked about my degree was when I applied to do some peripatetic visiting music teaching job at a school. And then it became very important because one, I either couldn't get an interview unless I didn't have a degree, and also the fact that that degree has nothing to do with teaching children was irrelevant as well. So there were people who were pre. My older than me being to music college before who either couldn't get those teaching jobs or on a lower hourly rate because they've been teaching for 20 years and were brilliant at getting young people to learn instruments, but didn't have the latest thing they had to have. And then I came along and was able to get this interview and get this job because I had this degree, but at no point did they ask me about how I would teach a child to learn, whether they're 5, 11, 15. So the degree literally was there for the support of the institution in order for them to continue to keep funding. They did a fantastic job at teaching me about music and all the things that made my professional career what it was. But the degree itself was really irrelevant until sort of later on in those circumstances became a reality.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:38:41

It's interesting and I also think that that still, and again, this is a generalization, but I think an important one still, it's still the difference between primary and secondary. If you had an interview at primary, the question as to how will those children learn from you? Is still there. In interviews at secondary it is very much about your subject knowledge and how will you get the grades out of them. And I get it, it's part of the system. Schools are accountable to the wrong things and they have to play, they have to play that game, I get that. But I think I, I'd urge school leaders to be of a mindset of not, please don't break the rules, but bend them as far as it can stretch and, and focus on the youngsters because I think in the end that's the way we will win. And I think it's an interesting one. I was, you know, we talked about universities and we've talked about little, little children and bigger children and you mentioned earlier the bit about the lifelong learning agenda for perhaps middle class people who are 45, but I think what, we, who then choose to go back to university or whatever. But, but I think we forget that lifelong learning is going on all the time. We perhaps don't necessarily classify it as such. My eldest daughter's partner currently works in the broadband industry as an engineer technician. But he, he has this thing where he wants to set himself up in his own business and he also wants to be an electrician. So of his own volition, he's now on training to become an electrician. That is lifelong learning. And in his case, really interestingly, it is not something that his company has instructed him to do. It is part of his experience of education and schooling. And then working has become to be confident enough and say, actually I'm really good at doing this, but I also want to do that and I'd quite like to run my own business. So he's educating himself in the electrician sphere, but also in the sphere of how do I set up my own business, how do I run my own business, how do I do all those things? And just because there isn't a big certificate or degree ceremony at the end of this doesn't mean that this is not part of the lifelong learning agenda. And sometimes I think we think of lifelong learning either as the middle class people who at the age of 45 go back to university, or the 65 plus year olds like myself who are taking up a course in golf or whatever it is. Actually lifelong learning affects almost all of us every day. There are people who are becoming better and more familiar with the Internet, with laptops, with Phones. All of that is part of that lifelong learning agenda of that curiosity and confidence that hopefully will have started when they were two years old. And so, again, I would urge to look at some very longitudinal aspects of research. So are the people. This is a question. I have no idea what the answer is. Are the people who went through that really high quality set of experiences through the Fondazione raid, your children at the age of 2, 3 and 4, are they therefore more curious? Better curious, More confident? Better confident so that 50 years later, that still makes a difference? I suspect there is something in that, but we don't know enough. We need to find out more. We need to be more curious as educators to get not just more data, but to get better data.

Mark Taylor 00:43:10

Yeah, I think. I think that research thing is one of the big takeaways for me over these 10 episodes has been actually really being able to quantify some of these broader discussions so that we can actually analyze it in a way which is supportive for everybody. And I think my sort of final part of the conversation, based on what you said there, if we have curious learners, we give them the environment that they need and the ability to be able to explore the world in a way that they want to. We're in this transition of sort of AI and universities in the way that we've spoken about. Do you sort of conceive a world where we start to think it's not. We don't need the university structure, because I can find out everything that I need to do. I could get a qualification on my own. I could have a community, a support network which would enable me to train, to learn and actually live the life I want to on my terms, rather than, you say, having to be part of that institution. Because, of course, we've said in the early years into schooling up to 18, you don't have a choice really. But actually now you do have a choice in that higher education age group. And do you think more people will start to do that and will the world will develop in such a way that it becomes the more. The more normal way of doing things, or certainly a way that is deemed to be feasible by young people?

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:44:37

I think that the answer to that is not an easy one, and I think it's manifold. So the first answer is yes. Yes, I can see that happen. But my question is why and who for? So it will be. It will be appropriate for some learners, I have absolutely no doubt. Just like the whole Khan Academy thing and whatever else, it's appropriate for some. But what the mistake we must not make is almost the university mistake of the 1990s that says just because it's appropriate for some and because it's cheaper, we now make it available to everybody. Right. So I think what that development will do is it will add another paragraph to the menu of lifelong learning and a very important one. On a different note, I do see every aspect of learning impacted by AI and technology, hopefully in a good way, but not as a replacement for some. If I look back at myself, would I have had the confidence, the discipline and the knowledge to do it for myself online? I would have hopelessly failed. I needed other people around me and I still would to this day. I look at my son and my eldest daughter and I think they too would have needed other people around them. I look at my youngest daughter, the post Covid child. She still needs other people around her, but less so. So I think it's an. It's a matter of menu rather than replacement. And, and we must make that decision on educational grounds and not on economic ones, because that. That's the absolute danger.

Mark Taylor 00:46:43

Yeah, and you could really see that coming, couldn't you, from there? And I think maybe that's my final takeaway from that point of view as well, is the fact that if you have these different menu items of how you can learn and when you can learn, then there are more options. But like I say, you still need the conversations, you still need the understanding of what you're doing and why, and that there are no wrong answers. It's just that what's going to work best for you at that particular time, and that may be dictated by your personal circumstances, it might be dictated by circumstances outside of your control. And I think all those things seem to be true. So as we wrap up today, but also wrap up in terms of these 10 episodes, we should just mention if anyone didn't know, we're going to have a live discussion. So we're going to have the opportunity for people to send in questions. People can be involved in real time and we're going to be having that on the 3rd of June. So if you're watching this and listening to this in real time, do check that out. Details will be in the description. If you're listening or watching this after June, make sure that you go and find those replays because it'll be very interesting in terms of how we have the opportunity to kind of round up the whole series in, in. In the discussion in that particular way. But is there, is there for this particular sort of recording element of these 10 episodes? A parting shot, a piece of something you've taken away, maybe that you hadn't thought of before or something which has sort of come post writing the book, having had these sort of hours of discussion and conversations that we've had together.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:48:17

There is one, and it's probably stating the obvious, Mark, so. So my mantra has always been children can only aspire to what they know exists. And I'm not going to change it because I'm too old to change it. But deep down, I do want to replace the word children by the word everybody. Because the conversation applies to parents, the conversation applies to teachers, the conversation applies to 99 year olds and the conversation applies to 0 year olds. Everyone can only aspire to what they know exists. And the focus of education, more than schooling, needs to be about addressing that level of experience and that level of provision. And whatever we call it, polytechnic, university, nursery, primary school, whatever we call doesn't really matter. It is what goes on inside, inside here and inside here.

Mark Taylor 00:49:22

Thank you very much indeed. And my final takeaway for me, I think, is the fact that all of these bigger picture things are really important. We should keep asking the questions, we should keep making people accountable. But on the same almost a bigger passion is do what you can do and do what you can say and what you can share to people around you in the herein now as well. Because that does make a difference to everybody. And hopefully over these 10 episodes you've heard something, been exposed to something, thought about, something that maybe you hadn't done before for. And I really appreciate Gaz sharing all this wisdom, but I appreciate you for being here and being part of this conversation. And it's been a real privilege for me to do this. I wanted to do it, obviously to have these important conversations, but also it's going to be our 500 episode. It's 10 years of education on Fire. And I think this is a brilliant way to sort of celebrate those things and to encapsulate in these 10 episodes what it is that I was thinking about all that time, even though I probably couldn't articulate it in the way that we've been able to do in these few weeks. So, yeah. Garrett, thank you so much indeed.

Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE 00:50:33

Mark, it's been my pleasure and my privilege. Thank you.