Summer Camps USA: What Kids Learn at Camp That Schools Can’t Teach

Matthew Kaufman 00:00:22

The idea is that camp is like school but for relationships. So when you go to camp, you're learning how to be a person that you want to be, how to be a good citizen, how to be a good friend. So the idea behind what we do is it's sort of less important what you're doing, and it's more important who you're doing it with and how you're doing it, your behavior, your values. For me, the framework that I use is stress plus support. Support equals growth. Okay, so you need stress and support. If you have no stress, you have fragile kids that can't solve any problems. And if you have stress without support, that's when you have, like, a bullying situation. So you need stress plus support, and that's how you get growth.

Mark Taylor 00:01:11

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor, and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, The place for creative and inspiring learning.

Mark Taylor 00:01:22

From around the world.

Mark Taylor 00:01:25

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Mark Taylor 00:01:33

Hello.

Mark Taylor 00:01:34

Welcome back to Education on Fire. Today, I'm delighted to be chatting with Matthew Kaufman from I Love Camp Now. He has spent more than three decades creating environments where children and staff thrive, and he has done this as a camper, a counsellor, and now summer camp director. People learn, grow, and connect best in community settings where problem solving, creativity, and play come first. Most workplaces, schools and families stumble into community by accident, but camp builds this on purpose. It's a practice that can be learnt and applied anywhere. Using these insights, Matt has written a book called the Camp Fire Effect, which explores the neuroscience behind what makes camp work. It examines five neurochemicals that drive human connection and shows how camp naturally creates the conditions for each one to flourish. Then it offers practical frameworks for applying these lessons in workplaces, classrooms and homes. Now, this isn't a book about summer camp. It's a book about belonging, using camp as the lens. So today we discuss some of these key things that children learn from attending summer camps and how that supports them now, but also in the future. Hi, Matt. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Fire podcast. I need to sort of make sure I've got no preconceived ideas, because when I think of camp and I think of America, it's all to do with any of the films that I've seen in my sort of idea of that through. Through that particular lens. So thank you so much for being here. And maybe the first question should be preconceived idea based on those messages. A true reflection on what it's like.

Matthew Kaufman 00:02:58

That's so funny. Yeah. I'm sure you're thinking of the parent trap, right? That's the first one. That.

Mark Taylor 00:03:03

Exactly. That kind of thing. Yeah.

Matthew Kaufman 00:03:05

Yeah. So. Yes and no. So in America, there are thousands and thousands of summer camps, and there's all different kinds, and there's everything you can imagine. So there are a lot of camps that look and feel similar to those kinds of movies and those kinds of stereotypes, and that is what people think of when they think of camp. And we call that a traditional summer camp. And that's the kind of camp that I work at, although my camp is a day camp, so the kids go home at night, but that's the kind of camp that I've experienced and that my colleagues and my environment is involved in. However, there are a slew of other types of camps. There is educational camps. There's been a rise of coding camps for kids that are into that. You can go to video game camp, and then there are camps that are sports specific. So if you're very into football, either American or European football, you can go to a camp like that. So there's all different kinds of camps. But I think for the purposes of what I talk about and what I try to teach people, I think that idea of one of those traditional camps like you see in the movies is a good basis for the discussion.

Mark Taylor 00:04:26

Fantastic. So let's take that into. Into your camp that in terms of you said it was day rather than sort of boarding or overnight. So take us into to what that looks like in the kind of the feel of everything you've got set up there.

Matthew Kaufman 00:04:39

Right. So at my camp and in the camps that I work closely with and that I'm familiar with, the idea is that camp is like school, but for relationships. So when you go to camp, you're learning how to be a person that you want to be, how to be a good citizen, how to be a good friend. So the idea behind what we do is it's sort of less important what you're doing, and it's more important who you're doing it with and how you're. How you're doing it, your behavior, your values. So at my camp, we have 75 different activities that children go to, depending on their age, depending on a lot of different things. But your goal is not necessarily to come away being a better basketball player. Your goal is to come away learning how to interact with the other players on your team and the other team you're playing against. Because that is a much more important lesson than being able to shoot the ball better. You know, nobody that comes to our camp or I would be shocked if anyone that comes to our camp becomes a professional basketball player. The odds against that are just extraordinarily high. But everyone that comes to our camp will have to live in a real world environment, work in a workplace and have relationships with other people. So that's why learning the kind of person that you want to become is much more important than learning the skills of how to dribble or shoot a basketball.

Mark Taylor 00:06:09

So in, in, in terms of that, the people that you have working on camp, are they always very solely specialized in, in a particular activities? You sort of mentioned basketball there. Or are they more that sort of multi task, multi skilled? In terms of the sort of area, whether it's a sport area or art related or music related, how does that work?

Matthew Kaufman 00:06:29

So the most important thing for us when we hire is if the person is a role model. So is that someone that I would want my own child to be around? Is that someone that I feel is a good representation of what I want kids to grow up to be? The skill is important, but it's secondary. So we have a drama program and our drama instructor knows a lot about theater, knows a lot about teaching kids how to do improv and explaining dance routines and, and musical numbers and all that stuff. And that's wonderful. And we want her to have that and we want her to be skilled in that. But she won't get hired unless she is a role model and a good person and can form that bond with that child to give them feedback not only about their theater performance, but about how they're interacting with their peers. So one is being a role model and maybe one A or even number two would be the skill in the area. So you really have to have both. When one red flag when we're hiring people is when we, when we ask them why they think they'd be a good fit working at camp, if they, if they say something like, well, I'm great at sports, that's, that's actually a red flag for us because if you think that that's your primary focus coming into the summer, you're, you're maybe missing the point a little bit.

Mark Taylor 00:07:53

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And in terms of the children and the youngsters coming into camp, what's their primary focus? Is it the fact that they want to learn some of these activities? Is it actually like you say, the Community and the skills that they're going to learn or does that come from having been but not their primary idea? And I guess that also flips in terms of why, why they're there in the first place. And from a parental point of view, are they doing it because they want those skills? Is it the fact that there's a long summer and we need our children to go somewhere and be. Have those activities while learning those things as well? And I'm sure there's a wide variety of answers to that. But in experience. What do you think?

Matthew Kaufman 00:08:32

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And we, we often, in terms of marketing, we sometimes get confused ourselves because for the kids, the kids are generally coming to camp and their, their goal is to have fun. Right. They just want to have fun. They want to be with their friends, they want to play, they want to try new things. For the parents, their goals are often different. There is the reality that that camp can be child care for parents. Although there are much less expensive child care opt there. But parents are typically looking for more of the skill building, more of the opportunity to grow socially. There's a lot of research and evidence that shows that, that kids who go to camp do better in school. And a lot of that has to do with just their feeling of confidence and growth over the summer. There's no, there's no sort of summer regression for kids that go to a high quality summer camp. So the parents definitely have different goals. So we're kind of doing dual marketing when we market to the children versus the parents. And it can be tricky at times.

Mark Taylor 00:09:40

Yeah. And I always think sometimes that's, I think certainly in the school environment, in an education environment, sometimes understanding that you're the adult in the room and you know what you're trying to do from that environment and that messaging because like you say all those things are true and actually understanding all of those things, one helps you to get the type of people to come and provide a great experience. But while also knowing you still need to get people to come as well. So if the childcare is an important part, knowing that that's what we're going to talk about, but also then being able to like say share the rest of those things which are the important factors, it kind of, it sets that scene in the best for both people.

Matthew Kaufman 00:10:18

And it's very difficult. You said, you know, you alluded to the teacher or the educator sort of being the expert and in a for profit environment where you're running this, this camp for kids. But but you have to stay in business. You know, typically the, you know this, the saying goes, the customer is always right, but sometimes the customer is not right. The parent is not always right. And we, we often feel like sometimes parents want to remove every obstacle that faces a child. And as camp professionals and educators, we know that the struggle that the child goes through is, is the learning. And if there's no struggle, there's no growth. And without struggle, kids become fragile. So you have to strike a balance between putting kids in a position where they can challenge themselves, but they're doing it with the support of great staff and the peers that are around them. And explaining that to parents is sometimes difficult, although many, many of them understand it and I think more of them are learning to understand it. As we go through this wave of social media changing kids and changing the ability of kids to solve problems and everything that came out from the anxious generation, I think more parents are beginning to understand the points that we're making.

Mark Taylor 00:11:38

Yeah, it just reminds me, there was a prep school I used to teach at, in, in central London and they often had that thing, it was a private school, so the parents were paying for them to be there. It was very creative, it was very arts based and, and you would have that, that come up. It's that kind of, well, I'm paying for my child to be here. I think you should do it this way. This is what I want it to happen. And very clear and very good at saying no. You knew what the school was about when you signed up your child to come here. And that's what you're paying for. You're paying for us to deliver what we believe in a way that supports everybody in that global picture. And it was very clear and very concise, but it really needed to be like that because otherwise, like I say, you have a million different conversations and a million different versions of things and then absolutely nobody wins and gets the education that they need.

Matthew Kaufman 00:12:26

Right. And I think knowing who you are and knowing what your values are is important for that. Otherwise you wind up giving a different answer to every, every family, every person that calls you up or emails you. So I think, I think the idea that we try to live by is that we are partners with the parents. And there may be times when parents don't understand our point of view. And in those moments, our goal is not to get into an argument with the parent, but to have a conversation and come to an understanding that we're all going to do what's best for the child.

Mark Taylor 00:13:03

Yeah, I love that and I think, and that's why I love these podcasts and these conversations so much. Because no matter how great the website is, how great the sort of the optics are, it's only when you hear someone talking about it in real life and like say with these ideas and these, these insights into what it's all about that you get a sense of the heart and like I say, the personalities behind it. So with that in mind, we should probably talk a little bit about how you got to where you are now. I know camp's been something which has been important pre adult and that kind of thing. So take us through that journey and there's all the different versions from being a youngster in it to, to where you are now and, and the things that you, you know, are the really important factors of what's such an important part of people's lives.

Matthew Kaufman 00:13:47

Right. So I'm very aware that camp is a very American invention. It's not even just American, but even the northeast of America. That's where most of the highest percentage of children go to camp. And it's very hard to explain why camp is such an important part of my life, but to give you a little bit of background, I started going to camp. The camp that I'm the director at, I started attending when I was 4 years old. I was almost 5. I have a September birthday, but I was 4 years old and my father worked at the camp. He was a teacher and he worked at the camp, which is how my sister and I attended. And at that point in my life, and probably still to this day, I was extremely introverted at that point. I was really shy. I had a fear of people. I didn't want to talk to people, especially adults. And when I went to camp that first summer, I had a really difficult time. I cried all the time. I missed my mom, I missed my dad. He wasn't involved with my minute to minute activities. He was off doing his own job at the camp. And I had a hard time making friends, I had a hard time interacting with the counselors. And you know, when that, that sort of stayed with me, it got a little bit better over time. But when I would go to school during the, the, you know, the winter, which I now call the off season by the way, when I would go to school, everything would come. I was very fortunate. Everything sort of came easily. I learned, you know, reading, math, all that stuff. I was a very good student and I didn't, I didn't struggle at all. But when I went to camp every summer, I did struggle a little bit and it was, and it was hard for me. And you know, by the time I was maybe, you know, seven or eight or nine, I had been at camp for a few years. It became much easier for me and it actually became so much more rewarding for me because it wasn't easy, so it was rewarding. And then I stayed at the camp up until I was 15 years old as a camper, and then I was able to become a staff member, a camp counselor. And that's when I really started to truly love the camp experience because I saw it from the other end and I saw what I was doing and how that impacted the kids who were like me. And I got a chance to feel a different kind of reward by seeing the kids have the same kind of experience that I had, just kind of slowly coming into themselves and becoming the best versions of themselves. And very long story short, I stayed working at camp as a counselor throughout high school and throughout college, and I got my master's degree. And at that point I was offered the opportunity to work year round at the camp. And I could not pass that up. I had to say yes. And that was over 20 years ago. And now I'm one of the directors at the camp. So I went from being a crying every single morning to now the director of the camp. And you know, of all the places that I've been, of all the educational experiences that I've had, the camp experience I think is the most powerful one and the most transformative one certainly for me, and I've seen it literally thousands of times over the past couple of decades.

Mark Taylor 00:17:30

So I'm curious in terms of now that you have that experience and obviously you can support children as they're coming through, you see the different personalities, the brash kids, the ones who are shy, like say the ones that are going to get upset. How does that work from a director's point of view? Is it kind of just the personal interactions? It's the knowledge, the support that you can do on that sort of one to one basis. And, and how do you, how do you sort of gauge that and give them some kind of progression based on your experience in terms of knowing it's difficult in the here and now if that's, indeed if they're upset, but knowing that over the course of time it's going to be something which is going to be so beneficial.

Matthew Kaufman 00:18:11

Right. So as a director, the higher up you go on the chain, the further away from the one on one interactions you get with the children. So My perspective is, at this point, putting the right people in the right situations to create that transformation. And one thing that we do really well is we hire really well, we retain our staff really well, and we train our staff really well. So most of our staff were actually campers with us. So that goes a long way, because these are people that understand what the experience is supposed to feel like. And they may not be able to explain to you what's going on in a child's head, but they certainly know what to do. It's this innate feeling that they have of what they should say and what they should do. And that only comes from the experience of having gone through the program. And, you know, in terms of different types of children, one thing that happens at camp is there's a lot of ways to equalize the playing field at school. There's a few paths. I call them paths to dignity. You know, at school, you could be the smartest, you can be the best athlete, you can be the class clown. There's not a whole lot of other ways that kids get recognized in school. In many schools. Some schools do this actually very, very well, but sort of painting with a broad brush. Here at camp, there are dozens of ways to be successful. You know, at our camp, you can be, yes, you can be a great athlete, but you could also be great at chess, you can be great at drama, you can sing, you can be funny. You can be the one that helps out cleaning up the cabin. You know, at camp, you get praised when you're a good teammate, when you show sportsmanship. So there's a ton of ways to get dignity. And I think that just a great equalizer for all those different kinds of personalities. And we often find that kids that are a little bit left out in school, or maybe the invisible child in school at camp, they have a different Persona, and they have a different way of thinking about themselves.

Mark Taylor 00:20:25

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess it's those skills which you've kind of taken into other aspects of your life as well. In terms of writing the books and sort of understanding that this isn't just about those. Those children at that particular age, having experienced it, like you're saying, gone through it applies to other walks of life as well.

Matthew Kaufman 00:20:44

It does. The things we do at camp, it's not magic. You know, people always talk about the magic of camp. Well, it just feels like magic when you're here. Well, it might feel like magic, but it's not magic. It's science. And you mentioned the book that I Wrote is called the campfire effect. And it talks about the chemicals that are triggered in the brain when you send a child to camp. And it's a camp that is intentional about what it's doing. And one of the most important chemicals is oxytocin, the safety chemical, the trust chemical. And what we do really well at camp is build the bonds between campers and staff and campers and campers. And that makes children feel safe. And I think we all know that a child cannot achieve their full potential unless they feel safe, physically and emotionally safe. So I think that's a big takeaway from what we do at camp. That can be applied to really any situation, whether it's school, a family or a workplace or anywhere else.

Mark Taylor 00:21:51

And in terms of the people beyond camp, do you sort of. Are you able to sort of keep in touch with them? As in they then become the parents and then they're sending their children camp and then you have that sort of into sort of into sort of. I was gonna say dimensional race. That isn't what I mean in terms of grandparents, parents, children, all that sort of stuff.

Matthew Kaufman 00:22:13

Generationally, generational.

Mark Taylor 00:22:15

There you are. Thank you.

Matthew Kaufman 00:22:16

Yeah, we. That is very common at camps is to have alumni children and alumni grandchildren. My camp's been around for over 100 years, so we have, we have third and fourth generation campers and we love that those parents really understand what camp's about. And in terms, camp is this great place to bond and make friends and you go through all these ups and downs together and that bonds people close together. So all of my closest friends are from camp. At this point, I probably don't have any friends outside of camp anymore.

Mark Taylor 00:22:53

I completely understand. As a musician myself, I think most of our closest friends are other musicians. Because you spend so much time with them, they understand how you work and those sorts of things that you do. But you spend so much time in a place that you love, you know, you're making music together, you might be touring together. So you're spending sort of social time with them as well. So I can, I can completely relate to that in there from that side of everything. So in, in terms of this sort of work balance, as it were, how does it affect you from a. From a career point of view? Are you doing this full time? Have you got your sort of day job on the side? And is it as seasonal as it sounds? But I'd imagine the pre. Everything getting ready for the summer is quite a big one.

Matthew Kaufman 00:23:34

Yeah. So for me this is a year round job for nine months. Out of the year. It's similar to running any other small business. There's sales, marketing, budgeting, logistics, technology. There's regulations. We do a lot of building, so there's facility upkeep. So, like, it's like. It's like running any other small business. Most of our staff, we have over 500 staff in the summer. 90% Of those or more are just seasonal. They just work for the two months that we're open. But there is a lot of seasonality to it, which is something that I like. We have slower times in the fall, and then it starts to ramp up. So from January through August, every month is sort of twice as hard as the month before as we're getting ready. And then in June, July and August, basically it's like 24, 7. There's basically no break. But the difficulty or just the level of commitment, it's balanced out by the joy that comes from the experience. So at camp, no matter what position you're in, you have peers, you have people that you're around all the time. And you tend to laugh a lot, you joke a lot, you move a lot. And that produces endorphins, which gives you a lot more energy to keep going. Without that joy factor, there's no way that any of us would be able to put in the amount of effort that we put in in those three months. So it all kind of fits together and we make it work.

Mark Taylor 00:25:24

Yeah, I can imagine. And I say for those of us that haven't experienced it firsthand, does it a youngster come through the entire summer? Can they do a certain number of weeks and then. And how do you sort of gauge the activities in the kind of things that they're able to participate related to that?

Matthew Kaufman 00:25:44

So every camp is different. And I'll explain how my camp works and then sort of share the variety of experiences that a child can have. So at my camp, the vast majority of our children are coming for the full eight weeks of the summer, which is great because it gives them a sense of consistency. We have some kids that join us for a half season, so four weeks, but that's the minimum, actually, at this point in time. That is unusual for camps. Many camps are now shorter seasons, and you can choose to go for one week or two weeks, so you could have a much shorter experience. So there's really a variety of types of camps that you can go to. And I know that we. At our camp, we hire about 40 to 50 international staff that come from overseas, so they come from places like England or Australia. We've had from all over the world, actually, and they are not familiar with the camp experience. And one of the wonderful things is seeing these people come in who have no concept of what they're getting into at first, be completely overwhelmed for a few days, and then the end of the first week, they are so enmeshed, and they just love it, and they totally get it at that point. And that is also a rewarding experience for camp professionals to see.

Mark Taylor 00:27:18

Yeah, I can imagine. And from an international point of view, I'm assuming that a lot of the children that come are relatively local to you, especially, like, say, if they're not actually boarding as well. But I guess again, depending on the camp, that may be different as well.

Matthew Kaufman 00:27:35

Right. For day camps, the vast majority of children tend to be local, although we do because of how close we're located to Manhattan. Every year, we do have a decent amount of children that come from overseas. Their family is staying maybe in Manhattan for a month or two months, and they will come to camp with us for the resident camps, the boarding camps, where children can stay there. There is now a very significant population that come from overseas because people in other countries are starting to understand the value of the camp experience in terms of building relationships and helping children grow into adults that can be caring, you know, and. And great communicators and. And great citizens of the world.

Mark Taylor 00:28:20

And do you still see them as sort of chalk and cheese in terms of his school? Like you say that the. The out of hours version and then the. Then camp over the summer, say that the in season rather than the offseason? Or do you. Do you think there is a way that they can sort of be more harmonized and. And work together, or just the setup means that it doesn't quite work in that way.

Matthew Kaufman 00:28:43

So I think that right now they're. They're very separate, and I'm not happy about that. And one of my goals is to speak to as many people and get the word out to as many people that school doesn't have to be that way. We're going through a change in the. In the value of education. And by that I mean, with artificial intelligence, things that were once very difficult are now much easier. And things that were difficult or things that were easy are now much more difficult. And I compare it to the calculator. It used to be 200 years ago, if you could multiply numbers on a piece of paper or in your head, that was a wonderful skill to have. And you could perhaps make a living like that, then with the Advent of the calculator, that skill became less desirable. I think with artificial intelligence. Things like coding, writing, some of these generative functionalities, the value of that is much less important. And I think what we're going to see is that the value of things like problem solving, interpersonal communication, forming genuine relationships, managing real human beings, I think those skills are so much more important going forward. And, and I feel like schools are going to have to make a significant change in what they're teaching in a very short amount of time. And fortunately for me and my profession and the people in my profession, we're already teaching those skills. We're already teaching how to do all the things that are going to be necessary in this new AI artificial intelligence paradigm.

Mark Taylor 00:30:32

Time. And I'm curious, when you're doing this with, with, with youngsters, are you pointing this out so they're fully aware in the same way or does the experience just innately give them those skills which they're aware of as they then go back into school or sort of head into adulthood?

Matthew Kaufman 00:30:50

You know, it's, it's, it's a fine line, right? Like the moment you tell a child they're learning something, it stops being fun. So you know what, what I try to do with especially the younger children is put little seeds into their head. So if they learn, pick up a skill in swimming, let's say they can now swim in the deep water, I put something in their head like, like, do you realize that you, you tried really hard and you were able to do that, right? Now they start telling themselves the story that they are someone that can do hard things if they try. And little things like that over the course of a summer and then over the course of many summers changes the way that they think about themselves. And then with older kids, what we do to varying degrees of success is we explain to them why not having your cell phone on you all the time during the camp experience is beneficial. And we try to explain that they're, that they're having real world relationships and that what the phone is doing to their brain. We try to explain all of that to them. And I think that they understand it and I also think that it doesn't change their behavior all that much, especially when they leave our environment. So I would say that we haven't had great success extending the putting the phone away mindset beyond the camera camp experience. Unfortunately.

Mark Taylor 00:32:26

No, I can, I can understand that. But I'm also curious is to put as to how the phone is then a positive in terms of are they able to keep in contact with each other. You know, is there a. A camp, WhatsApp? Is there. Is there a group? Is there something. Is. Or is that just all done independently or is there sort of that. It's been a fantastic eight weeks and you've made real great friends and we may see you next year. But also this relationship can be supportive in that meantime. But it's going to be in a slightly different format.

Matthew Kaufman 00:32:55

Yeah. So with our older kids, and I think at this point it's even like nine and 10 years old and up. One of the first things we see them do when they go home that first night is they find each other on whatever the popular social media platform is at that time. Whether it's, you know, one point it was Facebook, and now I think it's TikTok or Instagram or whatever it might be. And so they're communicating that way outside of camp. And I think there's a lot of benefits to the social media apps, especially the ability to keep in touch with people when you're not seeing them every day. I think that's a benefit, but I think that there's just so many more drawbacks in terms of how much it takes away from what you're doing, from what you can do. Every hour you spend on TikTok is an hour you're not spending playing outside or reading a book or talking on the phone with your friends or being in person with your friends. So I think that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits, but there are definitely some benefits in terms of being able to keep those relationships a little bit tighter.

Mark Taylor 00:34:06

And I think the great thing in the opportunity that you have, of course, is the fact that they've experienced what it's like, like in that real world. And, and so that they can know that difference. And more important, like you said, the science of it, they can feel the difference and the benefit of it. And it's not just a. Well, it is a wow thing, but it's a wow thing over many weeks. And that's very different than like, say, the one off day or, or. Or a week. Over that amount of time, it becomes a bit more inbred and inbuilt. And I think that feeling becomes much more of a solid foundation.

Matthew Kaufman 00:34:38

Right. And I think one of the really sad things is that when I talk to these teenagers, they completely understand what's going on in their brains with the social media. I say to them, if you're not paying for an app, you're the product. Your attention is what's being sold, and they understand that, and they don't like that, but they cannot stop using it. They say if I stop using it, I will have no social life, I will be ostracized, and I will be completely on my own. I have no choice. Which I think is very sad, because I understand where they're coming from, and in a lot of ways, they're right about that.

Mark Taylor 00:35:14

And I guess my final thought on that is the fact that if they know that's the case, then you can make a decision about what that percentage is in terms of time and interaction and that kind of thing. I think the hardest thing is the fact that if you don't know that's the case, then you're literally, like, you're saying, just being fed these things without even knowing. And I love what you said there about if you're not paying for an app, then you are the producer. I think that's fantastic because it's there to serve its purpose rather than there to serve you. And I've never heard it put like that before, but I think that's fantastic.

Matthew Kaufman 00:35:44

Yeah, that. That hits home. And the kids all know it. They all know it. They know that they're being manipulated, and they just can't stop. And it's very sad.

Mark Taylor 00:35:54

Yeah. And I think we know the same as adults as well. So if anyone listening has come up with a solution to that and a way of doing it, then get in touch and we'll share it around the world.

Matthew Kaufman 00:36:03

World.

Mark Taylor 00:36:04

Oh, fantastic. So, obviously, the acronym FIRE is really important to us here at Education on fire. And by that, we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience, and empowerment. What is it that strikes you when you hear those words, either collectively or individually?

Matthew Kaufman 00:36:20

So they're all amazing, and they. They're all related to what I do. If you'll allow me, I'd like to pick two, and I'll make them short, I promise.

Mark Taylor 00:36:29

No problem.

Matthew Kaufman 00:36:31

So resilience is one that really strikes accord with me because that's what we try to build with our campers. And for me, the framework that I use is stress plus support equals growth. Okay? So you need stress and support. If you have no stress, you have fragile kids that can't solve any problems. And if you have stress without support, that's when you have, like, a bullying situation. So you need stress plus support, and that's how you get growth. And then empowerment is something that I'm really passionate about. And we are very intentional about building leaders at our camp, so we like to empower young people at very young ages 16, 17 years old. We empower them. And one way that we do that is we encourage all of our staff to, instead of asking, what should I do? They say, I plan to or I intend to. And this comes from a book called Turn the Ship Around. Intent Based Leadership. That's where we got it. I didn't make this up. And the idea behind this is if you force someone to say, I would like to, or I plan to, or I intend to, it forces them to think like their supervisors. So they're still asking for permission and they don't have free reign to do whatever they want, but they're forced to try to solve the problem on their own and think about things from a perspective of maybe one level up. So that's, that's one trick we have to empower people.

Mark Taylor 00:38:03

I love that. And I think, like, say the, the camp gives so many positives and so many benefits in so many different ways. Like I say, from, from you working on it all year round in the skills and the experiences you're having that with your staff to, to the people who are there as leaders and, and helping and, and obviously the young people themselves. So, Matt, thank you so much indeed. I really appreciate your conversation and your insights. It's like I said, it's always fantastic to hear the personalities behind what's essentially either a website as people are looking at it, or fly or whatever that happens to be. And I think one thing that's really stuck out for me, like I say, the relationships, the understanding of who we are as humans and how we interact and the skills that we can embed based on those activities and things that you do are really amazing. So where would you like people to go and find out more about what it is that you're doing?

Matthew Kaufman 00:38:51

Sure, you can reach me on LinkedIn @MatthewJKaufman. My website is Ilove Camp, where I blog mostly about camp, but also some things that could be impactful for educators of all types. I do not blog between April and September though, because I'm way too busy. And then if you're interested in the science behind the magic of camp, the book is called the Campfire Effect and you can get that on Amazon or Audible people.

Mark Taylor 00:39:22

Amazing. Matt, keep up the great work and great to chat to you today and keep inspiring all those youngsters.

Matthew Kaufman 00:39:28

Thank you and thanks so much for having me. And you keep up the great work too.

Mark Taylor 00:39:32

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a.