BBC Bitesize Guide to AI

Mark Taylor 00:00:40

Hello.

Mark Taylor 00:00:40

Welcome back to Education on Fire. Today I'm delighted to be chatting to Carys Griffiths and she's the head of BBC BiteSize, the BBC's free online learning resource for students aged five to 16, their teachers and parents. Bitesize also aims to support educating the whole child through its careers, study support and media literacy Offer Other side of the Story as well as the special education initiatives like the Bite Sized Guide to AI. Keris was for many years a journalist in the Northwest, a TV and newspaper reporter, and then an editor of news programs for both ITV and BBC. She's on the board of the Micro Bit Education foundation and is an advisory board member for the Science and Industry Museum in Manchester. Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hi Kieran, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. It's great to chat to someone from the BBC again. And bite size is something we've always had a really great conversation about, but AI is a new world. It's a new situation for people. And I think having the BBC as an organization is a really important thing. It gives people that kind of comfort, I think, to know that the information that they're being provided with is really supportive. So, yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Cerys Griffiths 00:02:10

Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me, Mark. And it's really good to be talking about something that's the top of so many people's agendas, not least teachers, I guess, as well.

Mark Taylor 00:02:18

Absolutely, absolutely. So let's just do a quick kind of sort of introduction in terms of your role within bite size and how long you've been involved in it.

Cerys Griffiths 00:02:29

I'm now head of BBC BiteSize and I've been in this role since about six months, seven months now. But I've been working for Bite Size on BBC Education for quite a while previously in the campaign space where we did specific educational campaigns and then a couple of years ago moving to be more involved in the curriculum side. So I've got quite a long history.

Mark Taylor 00:02:51

With bitesize and in terms of these sort of AI projects, I know it sort of started with research and I guess it's that informed knowledge which then gives you the opportunity to then put these tools in and these support networks in place.

Cerys Griffiths 00:03:06

Well, yeah, I mean, we've always done a lot of audience research, both with Teachers and with students right across the age ranges. But we've about three years ago, I think it is now, we started doing an annual bite size and five live collaboration called the Bite Size Teen Summit Survey, which is basically asking teenagers lots of questions about their, their life, about what, what bothers them, their use of media, etc, and this year for the first time we really focused on AI and some of the stats from that were quite stark. So about a quarter of them didn't know where to go and find out information about AI and how to use it effectively. A third of them were worried about career prospects and also the spread of misinformation because of the introduction of AI. And it does feel like just, you know, the world's changing so quickly. I think in the last six months our approach has changed to AI. Even so it's just accelerating and it's really on their minds. I suppose the other factor is that they use it a lot. So last year 47% were using it for homework and revision. So goodness knows who how many be using it this year. I imagine a lot more than that. So it's very much part of their lives. So we felt like we ought to step into that space and that's, that's really the genesis of the bite sized guide to AI.

Mark Taylor 00:04:25

And I think certainly for me, like you said, it seems to be changing on a daily basis, let alone there's the weeks and months and years and years goes by. So I guess so much of what we need to talk about is kind of the critical thinking. It's the, the understanding that if you're going to be immersed in it, which everybody is now, let alone going forward, it's about that adaptability, it's about that kind of thinking about what you're doing and why you're doing it. So even as the tools change, like we say in this sort of rapid way, you're not feeling like you have to relearn everything each time that happens.

Cerys Griffiths 00:04:56

It's absolutely our approach, Mark. Yes, it's, it's all about critical thinking and getting young people to assess the information that they receive on their feeds on, you know, sort of an hourly basis basically. And if you can give them that life skill, then they'll be able to yet probably they'll have the resilience to deal with the information, but by whatever means it's delivered. It's just the delivery mechanism that's changing and the way that it could be manipulated that's changing. So the guide to AI does, it does two things really. We don't you know, it's part of their world. So we don't want to depress them about it. We don't want to make the sort of, it seem like a really sort of terrible thing that's happened because it's, there are really good uses for AI and it can be a really helpful tool for them. So what we've, the approach we've taken is to, I think we've done seven films which are basically young people using AI in real time in sort of different scenarios. So they might be using a well being chatbot or using it around their social media feed and getting them to explore the pros and cons of AI through that mechanism. So you see sort of real, you know, real use cases around it and then it gives you the opportunity to discuss kind of how, you know, what the risks are, what the benefits are, that kind of thing. And then the other thing we've done is we've looked at the world of careers because that's a big concern for them and how it's going to impact on them. And we've taken I think four or five different career areas and focusing on young people at the early stage of their careers and how they're currently using AI in the workplace just to show that it can be a creative tool, it can be a helpful tool and that there are still jobs to be had. And. But having that knowledge and understanding of AI and a sort of deeper knowledge than just using it in your Snapchat feed, for example, is a really good place to go to. So that's the approach we've taken. We don't want to, yeah, we don't want to terrify young people, but we want to give them the score, the skills need that they need and also the tools, you know, sort of signpost and the kind of tools they can use to verify stuff and fact check stuff that's also been a key part of it.

Mark Taylor 00:07:00

And what was your sort of biggest takeaway from that, from those conversations? You know, is it an exciting time or is it an exciting time with that little bit of, oh, we're not, we're not quite sure because it's the unknown that people, especially young people, get scared by, isn't it? And like say, especially that world of careers and work, it's a very much of an unknown sort of what's it going to look like in terms of jobs and what those jobs that you might even know now are going to look like in the future?

Cerys Griffiths 00:07:26

I think that is, that is the sort of the thing that we can't predict. Isn't it is where it's going to end up or. Well, it's not going to end up anyway. It's going to keep continuing to evolve probably. I think that's sort of, yeah, the, the unnerving thing about it, but it's actually quite exciting because I look at it as potentially as a great leveler. If we can give young people the access to the skills and the technology then you know, it can really, you know, really enhance the, their learning, enhance their understanding of the world, enhance sort of their creativity. But I think it's, it's helping people to understand that it's not, it's not a substitute for anything. It's like a companion. It can sort of support you and, and help you, but it's, you know, you still need to be a thinker and a creator and a developer alongside all of that as well. And so I'm trying, yeah, I have a fairly positive outlook on it but, but we do. People need people to understand the risks and I think the issues around misinformation and being able to generate kind of really sort of authentic looking video and images using AI that could be really misleading is quite a worry. So I think that's the area you need to focus on in terms of developing their critical thinking skills and understanding sort of how to detect that kind of, you know, misinformation.

Mark Taylor 00:08:41

And I know certainly talking to my children about these sorts of things, they just, they sort of take it in their stride. But that's, that's all very well if you have children who seem confident in what they're doing and those sorts of things. But for every one of those people there might be someone like say, who doesn't have as much access to it, hasn't used it before or is slightly concerned about it. So it's making sure that like say you're supporting, encouraging the people who are wanting to step into this sort of understanding and actually being very supportive for those who are a little bit more resident sort of speak, sort of so to speak.

Cerys Griffiths 00:09:11

I think that's absolutely right and I also think that sort of confidence is brilliant, but it's also a little bit of a dangerous thing. So some of what we found is that young people kind of don't know what they don't know so they, they use these tools all the time. And for me it was almost quite interesting that only 24% were concerned about going to places where they could find out more about AI because they probably feel like they, that other sort of 75% probably feel like they know everything they need to know and they probably don't. And it's sort of landing that message with them really, that, you know, there's this stuff you really need to explore and understand. It's not just about the use of the tool, it's about really understanding in depth what the impacts are. So I think that's, that's one of the challenges as well, is convincing young people that there's stuff that they might not know.

Mark Taylor 00:09:59

So in terms of some of the resources, and so we've mentioned the films and those sorts of things, what is it that teachers or parents can sort of take away from it? Is there a sort of a starting point, a jump off point or sort of a good use of, of how to sort of approach it?

Cerys Griffiths 00:10:15

Well, for quite a long time, because we've been operating the media literacy space for about three or four years now, because we identify basically through conversations with teachers, understood that they often at the front line of all these changes in young people's lives and are having to sort of combat disinformation and misinformation in the classroom before parents are even aware of it. And certainly people, organizations like the BBC are aware of it. So we're very keen to be as supportive as possible for teachers. So with everything that we've produced that is kind of student facing, we are producing also kind of teacher notes that will really help them use those resources in the classroom. Because I think from a teacher point of view, it's one of those subjects or issues where they're learning along with the students. You know, nobody's really ahead of the game, are they? We're all kind of going on the same journey together. So it's not like they've got like a huge amount of resources to draw on or experience to draw on when talking about these kind of things. So keen to sort of give them as much support in terms of teacher notes and guidance around how to use our resources as possible. But I think the first jumping off point is, you know, that I think the most sensible thing to do is to ask questions of young people is to understand, you know, how they're using it, what they're seeing and sort of, you know, listen to them because, you know, that's sort of. I think that's the way in. We always try not to take a sort of. That's why we've used young people in the films and sort of let them take us on the journey through actually doing the using AI in real time because, you know, that dictatorial approach. They're not going to listen to us if we, we come in sort of wagging our fingers and telling them how they should be doing things. So yeah, we're saying to them and asking them how, how it's impacting on their lives, how they're currently using it and opening up the conversation in that way.

Mark Taylor 00:12:00

And I definitely think as well there's something about the excitement of giving them the freedom to do that. But like say also with those kind of caveats of, you know, we need some kind of boundaries here or some sort of ideas. And I sort of think that certainly in the way of generating video, let alone pictures and voice these days is the fact there are so many options, there are so many things that you can do and very exciting ways of doing it. But also in. Because in some ways it's so good. Now the assumption is, is that it could easily be an AI video or it could easily be something which someone else has created. So actually bringing that sort of personal human side into it, whether it's you putting that information into the, into the. That you're using or actually that sort of, however you're running the project from that human side is going to, it's going to make the difference to maybe seeing that it's not just AI for the sake of AI, but it's actually part of a more kind of collaborative project.

Cerys Griffiths 00:12:53

Yeah, using AI as a collaboration tool. That's a really, really important way of looking at it. And in one of the films that we did actually we got, we were looking at the social media feeds and we got them to create the two young people involved in it, sort of social influence, social media influencers based on their own sort of Personas by aai. And one of them was an animated one, which is. You kind of go, that's you. You can spot that that's been generated by AI. But the other one was this sort of richly realistic looking sort of young person and it was quite terrifying and an overly realistic. And then you can look at it and you can see the difference between that and a human. And I think was a really good way of illustrating that there's the young person himself. I think sort of describes have. There's something lost in that, that it's not a real person. You know, if it's on your social media feed and amongst a load of other stuff, you may not actually spot that, but if you're trying to kind of actually identify with that person, there's something essentially not human about that is not human AI Generated influencer. That's sort of quite interesting for the, as a talking point for young people, I think. But on to the other point you made about being a collaborative tool. I think, you know, it'd be great if, if schools can get young people to use, give the, give them the opportunity to use AI to be creative because you learn best through doing it yourself and understanding how things work and, and what sort of feels ethical and what doesn't feel ethical. I think that's a really good way of illustrating those points.

Mark Taylor 00:14:28

And I always think from sort of an adult's point of view it's very easy to get worried about these things. And let's say it's the wild west of this new thing which, which is coming through. But you could argue the same thing when we went from, you need to go down the road to the library to find a book somewhere that's going to help you do something. And then there's this new thing called the Internet and then now there's search engines that can do it and now all of those things. It just seems to me that this is a very sort of natural next progression and yes, it's exploding and yes, it's sort of really mind blowing the sorts of things that can happen. But if you understand how society has changed and how we use resources in order to make our life as they are now and there's obviously good and bad signs of these things, but if we use that as an overall sort of understanding of how these things work, I think that can easily influence us then to sort of take this as a best practice going forward and know the best way to support our young people and sort of allow them, give them the tools they need to kind of take it forward in sort of to their generation as they grow up.

Cerys Griffiths 00:15:25

Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. It's essentially, you know, in one sense it's this research tool, isn't it? As well as a creative tool. And we've always had those in whatever format and, and you kind of, the learning from that is that you've, you know, if you're going to do research, you've got to be, you know, sort of certain that the, the source is a valuable source and a kind of factual source rather than a fake one. Or, you know, you could, you know, take a book out of the library that was a whole pile of nonsense and use it to sort of write an essay with. Same with sort of AI using sort of, you know, one of the AI tools to revise with. You've got to trust the source and helping young people understand how they can trust those sources, what sources to trust, how you can verify them, even like, you know, what good research is and what journalism is and understanding why those things are important. That's all part of the critical thinking skills. So. Yeah, and I think probably the scary thing about this isn't that it's yet another sort of evolution. It's the pace that it's all happening. I think this, it's happening so fast and we're as adults, we're sprinting to keep up, whereas young people are just doing it. And that's kind of from our point of view, that's more scary.

Mark Taylor 00:16:37

Yeah, yeah. And, and from a sort of a BBC sort of a production side of those things, I guess that's the same. Especially if you're doing something which is film based and supportive through those mediums. They take a little while to put together even with the greatest sort of emphasis on speed. So it's, I guess keeping up with those changes and the way you try and put those things together are important too.

Cerys Griffiths 00:16:57

Yeah. And, and you know, with. It's not something that we do with content ourselves, you know, when. And we know we can talk about why that we wouldn't do that. But you know, it's certainly going to be even in, you know, it's even in the more humdrum areas of life like lesson planning and you know, kind of, I don't know, scheduling stuff and all that kind of stuff. It's gonna, it's, you know, it's already massively to everybody and be lying if we, you know, it wasn't an enhancement to our lives in that way and you can expect, you know, young people, you know, so plan your revision. Using AI is a brilliant idea to do that but you know, maybe use sort of trusted sources to do the actual revision would be what I had to say. Obviously I'm going to say bite size would be one of those.

Mark Taylor 00:17:42

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's the key, isn't it? Is that, you know, I think it also maybe you sort of think it takes you down a techno technology rabbit hole. But in some ways, if you can stand far enough back and talk about this in the round, you how do you want to live your life? What's important to you? Having time off screen, you know, having other activities and things. So using the technology in a way that saves you time and gives you opportunities to do those other things and then like say it's easier to change that focus and into those positive routes Rather than like, say just the negative ones.

Cerys Griffiths 00:18:11

Yeah, about balance. Yeah, definitely. And also, you know, the. On the critical thinking side of it, as I say, we've been doing this. We've been working in this space for about three years now, largely driven by teachers, to be honest, is where we went into it. It's been very student focused. We've done a lot of our content, we've made for social media because that's where they are. And we've done a whole kind of area of bite size called Other side of the Story, which is all about giving young people the critical thinking skills they need to assess the media that they're receiving every day through all kinds of different ways, whether it's through their gaming platform platforms or social media or whatever it might be. And. And, you know, it's been really valuable and we constantly. Because it's changing all the time and by itself, we're constantly trying to think of new and engaging ways to catch their attention because obviously they're, you know, a lot of the things that are the. The reasons that they're getting kind of influenced by misinformation and disinformation is because the people that develop this kind of content, whether it's through AI or other sources, are quite creative and clever about how they do it. So we've got to be equally creative and clever. So one of the things that we've done very recently is launch, and actually launch this week is something called Solve the Story, which is for classroom use. It's really to help teachers, but it's for their students. And it's an episodic mini drama, if you like, involving young people. And it's sort of a bit of a whodunit. And it's over six episodes and you get a short episode. I think the setup is a skateboard park, three young people, some filming for social media, and how it all goes wrong from there. And then each episode you're asked to solve a sort of a kind of fake news disinformation kind of issue around that episode in order to unlock the next episode. And then you. There's a whole six episodes to get through, which comes to sort of an exciting resolution. So it's sort of hopefully will keep them hooked. But alongside the actual mini dramas themselves, there's also a video to watch which explains the tools that they can use to try and solve that week's episode. So we're hoping that that's going to be quite a fresh and innovative way to really engage young people in the classroom about how to Sort of develop those skills and to sort of start to understand some of the motivations and impacts behind misinformation and disability information.

Mark Taylor 00:20:42

And how do you think young people are kind of coming to these sort of new ways of doing sort of those sorts of learning things? You know, we talk about, you know, the, the getting away from the just looking forward to the teacher and everyone sat down in rows and those sorts of things. So the ability to sort of watch things, the ability to do things in your own time in, in small, maybe small groups and, and learning in those different ways. Do you think these sorts of opportunities to, to have these conversations maybe in, in that sort of smaller, smaller groups, smaller sort of ways of discussions, those sorts of things are going to be sort of supportive as well?

Cerys Griffiths 00:21:18

I think so. I mean it's very much about discussion, isn't it, and, and sort of learning from each other and sharing experiences and sharing the tools you may know things, you know, that we, we're aware of quite a lot of tools that you can help to sort of verify information and images and stuff that you see online and good ways of checking the veracity of, you know, email addresses, things like that. And we, we share all those, all that kind of insight in our, in our content. On bite size, however that, you know, they may know about other stuff. So I think, yeah, but I mean it's, it's up to a teacher about how they deliver this kind of stuff. What we're trying to do is give you give the teachers, give classrooms, give students really engaging ways of learning about things, a variety of ways. On, on bite size we do video, we're doing this sort of, you know, solve the story. We do podcasts, we do interactives, we do quizzes, you know, we flashcards, you know, the whole gamut of things that can help you learn. And it's then it's up to the teacher or the individual student about, you know, which ones would suit work best for them in that, in, in whatever moment or circumstance they're in. And I think that's the sort of, about education more generally that it's becoming, you know, there's one size doesn't fit all, I guess, you know, and we're trying to give people lots of different types of approaches that they, you then then use in the way that they see sort of see as most efficient or best for their, either for their class or their individual. So I think yeah, there's a, there's a real variety of media you can use and it's, it's great for that it's great, you don't just have to sort of rely on teachers talking or reading textbooks anymore. And I think gaming comes into that. As you know, we've recently moved into a game on Roblox. And I just think, you know, it's quite exciting that there's so many different ways you can learn now and so many different opportunities for us to sort of try and be creative and get people excited about subjects, whether it's media literacy or all kinds of subjects. So I see that as a massive positive. But I think it's up to the teachers to decide how they use those tools really.

Mark Taylor 00:23:23

And we sort of mentioned at the beginning about sort of the BBC in terms of having that kind of support, people understanding that they feel they're being looked after. You know, they've known the BBC for as long as they, as long as they could remember. You know, you really do have that sort of sense that you're being looked after with the best possible way. How does that kind of fit in into, into what you do? Does that give you sort of a little bit more license to create things in a way that maybe other people don't because they kind of feel like that trust is already there. And so therefore what you're able to bring into the world, people are going to sort of take it face value and know that they can sort of run with it.

Cerys Griffiths 00:23:59

I think our trust is one of our usps. You know, you don't have to fact check what we're putting out there because we've already done it. You know, we don't, we don't create anything without education consultants being involved. And by education consultants I mean teachers. That's what, you know, it's a sideline for teachers. So they're people that are actually working in classrooms. And so everything has gone through that lens already. And I think schools and teachers know that and students know that and certainly our audience data research shows that we are the most trusted source for that, for education content in that way. But I think what our other USP is that we are the BBC, so we're a media organization and are, what we do is create content, whether it's, it's audio, visual gaming or whatever it might be. So we can, we can combine that creativity with the trust and yeah, have a bit of a play around with stuff and we can experiment and if it's not worked, we won't do it again and we'll try something else.

Mark Taylor 00:24:57

It's great, isn't it, to sort of like say have that freedom And I think that sort of environment of being able to do that comes across in what then gets created. And, and you know, we talked about critical thinking being really important, but I think that understanding that it's just about you give something a go with the best intention in the best possible way, hopefully surrounding yourself with the people that are there with the same sort of mindset, wanting to do that. But you learn from failure. So if it doesn't actually work out or it doesn't resonate or whatever it happens to be, you move on to the next thing and it's a win win because you've been learning and everyone's learned with you.

Cerys Griffiths 00:25:29

Exactly. And also, you know, you've got to be like that to keep up with young people. You know, the most trickiest audience for us from, you know, from a BBC point of view, their world's constantly changing and their interests are constantly changing and who they, who they care about constantly changes in the media world. So we have to, yeah. Say run fast to keep up with them.

Mark Taylor 00:25:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Cerys Griffiths 00:25:49

That's part of the joy of what I do though. I love that side of it. You know, they keep us on our toes.

Mark Taylor 00:25:54

Yeah. And how, I'm just curious in terms of, in terms of the age range. So you sort of say, you know, the research you were doing in terms of teenagers and that sort of thing and then having, doing stuff for younger people as well, is it different groups of people, different teams that work in different ages or the, the concepts come up and then like say the educational consultants or the teachers or that you're working for have got that specific understanding that help you develop that.

Cerys Griffiths 00:26:20

So we're way, we're all, I mean we try and have a very flexible, very flexible teams that can work across lots of different areas of what we do. But the way we're organized is we have bite sized primary and we have a team working on that. We have bite sized secondary whose main focus at the moment is around gcse. But they do do a lot of key stage three stuff as well. And then we have people with the other side story and the solvia solve the story. And the media literacy stuff sits in our teens portfolio as we call it. And that is the, it's, it's kind of curriculum stuff, but it's not academic curriculum, so it's the broader curriculum. So it's all things about well being, how to study effectively, careers, media literacy, things like that. So we have another portfolio which really focuses on the wider school life and the lives of, of teenagers and then we have obviously bite size for teachers, which is our classroom content, sort of, it's mainly to sort of give teachers video that they can use as lesson starters or as inspiration in the classroom. So there's a team that works on that as well. And then we also have a team that does the, as I referred to previously about the educational campaigns which can be very specific things around. So we did the micro bit a year or so ago, sort of a microbit next gen, which is sort of a primary age, primary school focused campaign around digital literacy and coding skills. So then that team's focused on, you know, very specific education campaigns so that run across a year or two years. And that's how we're organised. So we do have some specialists within the teams. We have people who know what good content looks like, understand the audience and then we always use external education consultants to look at everything that we're creating as well.

Mark Taylor 00:28:10

And I always think sort of getting a little bit of a look behind the curtain, so to speak, is really interesting because so often, you know, you come across to the website or you see this project or you see that, but it's nice to sort of want to hear sort of the voice behind some of these projects so that you sort of hear the human in what you, what you see on the screen and just sort of get a real sort of sense of the, of the human side of it. Having talked about AI and not knowing what's sort of being created, you know, like say there's teams of people, which, you know, is the case. But there's something very nice about being able to sort of hear how that works and how those things sort of get put together, which is brilliant.

Cerys Griffiths 00:28:44

Yeah. And they're great teams, you know, they're like, they're very, they're very passionate about the audience and they've, they're, they're very creative but they're also really meticulous because we feel like this is high stakes stuff. It's not entertainment, it's education. It's really high stakes. You can't get it wrong. I mean, obviously some things do get wrong, we're human. But you really, really go the extra mile to make sure you're not getting it wrong. Because this is, this is life impacting. So we take it very seriously as well as having a lot of fun with it.

Mark Taylor 00:29:13

Yeah, it's a, it's a fine line to tread, isn't it? But I think like you say, you need to know that's being taken care of in the background, like say without it sort of, it still needs to be enhanced, let's say in that day to day enjoyment of what you're doing and the joy of creativity rather than, and like you say, the worrying of it going in any other particular direction.

Cerys Griffiths 00:29:34

Yeah, yeah. And so it's best job in the world.

Mark Taylor 00:29:37

Yeah, I can imagine. Now the acronym FIRE is obviously really important to us here and by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment. Is there any one of those words particularly that maybe jump out at you or collectively that you think is important for you?

Cerys Griffiths 00:29:54

Yeah, empowerment. I think what we're trying to do is empower young people to achieve the best that they can possibly achieve and to be, to thrive in the world in the best possible way. So that, yeah, pretty much everything we do rolls back to the how are we empowering them to be the best they can be at this, whatever this thing is, this particular thing they're studying right now.

Mark Taylor 00:30:16

I love that and I think for me a lot of those other things give you that opportunity to then be empowered, isn't it? Because if you're not resilient, then you're always going to be struggling. If you don't have the feedback, you don't know what the next thing is and you, you need to feel like you want to get out of bed to do something.

Cerys Griffiths 00:30:31

You need to be inspired.

Mark Taylor 00:30:32

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Cerys Griffiths 00:30:35

But the end game is empowered.

Mark Taylor 00:30:36

Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. Fantastic. Well, Cerys, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking us into, into say the back end of all those things, but also to be able to share where people can go and do that. We'll have links to, to all the different links in the description, which is most important.

Cerys Griffiths 00:30:51

Loads of stuff there.

Mark Taylor 00:30:52

Exactly.

Cerys Griffiths 00:30:53

Thank you so much for having me, Mark. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Mark Taylor 00:30:55

My pleasure. Thanks so much. Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.