Supporting Bereaved Children: Harry’s Rainbow

Mark Taylor 00:00:40

Welcome back to Education on Fire. Today I'm chatting to Marie-Claire Parsons, the project lead for Harry's Rainbow, a charity that supports bereaved children and Milton Keynes here in the UK. She has 30 years experience in schools culminating in founding a six school federation and being the executive headteacher. She has been a family liaison officer, education lead and beneficiary lead for the charity and has just completed leading on an art project where 15 young people explored their grief throughout Graffiti Harris Rainbow offer activity based support groups for children bereaved of a parent or sibling. Set up by Odette Mould MBE almost 15 years ago after the death of her twin Harry. Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast. The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hi Mary Claire, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. This is a charity which I came across because I was doing a co working day with somebody who'd been involved in it and they were chatting about it and I just thought it's such an important thing, it's such a supportive thing for the community and it's a relatively local charity to me. So I thought it'd be great for us to be able to share the work that you do and give people a bit of an insight of, of how you can support them given their circumstances as well. So, yeah, thanks so much for being here today.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:02:13

Oh, not at all. Thanks for, thanks for having me on.

Mark Taylor 00:02:16

So can you take us into a little bit of the history of the charity? How long has it been around and kind of why was it originally set up?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:02:24

Yeah, of course. So it's actually the 15th year anniversary next year. So it's been going for 15 years and it was set up by Odette Mould MBE and it was set up because very trag, her son Harry, who is a twin with Jessica, he was taken into hospital with asthma and very sadly died and didn't come home. I think they were about five at the time, very young and Odette was passionate about finding some support for Jessica and what, what transpired was they had to travel. The family had to travel about 45 minutes to an hour on a Saturday morning to get some support for Jessica. And if you've met Odette, then you will know that she is a very passionate lady, very driven and she decided no child in Milton Keynes was ever going to have that issue again where there was no support. So she pulled all her energy and grief into developing Harry's Rainbow, the charity to offer support for bereaved children in Milton Keynes and surrounding Milton Keynes. So if a child can travel and they can get to the groups, then that's the surrounding boundary, if you like. So yes, that's how it started. And like I say, it's the 15th year anniversary next year.

Mark Taylor 00:03:42

And so in terms of that support, in terms of people being able to sort of attend in person, what does that look like? And I know you have their projects, there's, there's sort of memory boxes, sort of how, sort of the breadth of what it is and how that supports people. And I guess it's sort of, it's appropriate for different ages as well.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:04:01

Yes. So we have our Rainbow group. So our rainbow groups are for children age 1 to 11. That's the easiest way to put it. They're all activity based groups. So the rainbow groups, the children come and they partake in activities, they partake in food and it's just a chance for them to do something, but be able to talk about their loved one in a very relaxed, creative atmosphere. Because talking about grief and bereavement is really hard and it's particularly hard for people in the uk. We just don't talk about death, you know, that stiff upper lip. We just don't talk about grief. So that's our rainbow groups. And then we have our youth groups which is age 11 to 18 ish. And again they come and they have activities to do, age appropriate activities. And then we have, we call it our yaddy, which is our young adults group or drop in group. So that's from 18 to 25. So we support children from 1 to 25 through monthly groups. The parents are given a cup of coffee. So the parents tend to come just for the rainbow groups, they don't come for the youth groups. But sometimes it's the only time that somebody's made them a cup of tea. You know, they're juggling family, they're juggling grief, they're juggling work. And for them to sit with other parents and be able to, you know, have that conversation about how they're feeling with other people that understand it's really empowering. It sounds like it might be a really miserable place to come, but actually it is the most joyous place to come. And if anybody ever wants to just come and see what we do and visit, please do because, you know, it's, it's a room full of people who are grieving in some of the most tragic circumstances. But they're all there just, just gaining energy and positivity from each other. So. So those are the groups and that's just one part of what we do. We also offer a summer trip and a Christmas trip. So that's for the first two years that you've been registered because we have a huge number of families. We also do a Christmas party and a summer party. So this time of year is really busy. If families that have registered have been bereaved that year, they are off. Also offered a hamper. We've just had our hamper evening, which I can tell you about, which again is an amazing evening. What else do we do? Oh, we have a caravan so we call it our retreat. It's on the south coast and every family is allowed a two to three night stay in our caravan on the south coast. And that's just a way to get away from it all. One family said that it was just so lovely actually to be somewhere where no one knew them because sometimes it's easier just to make new memories when nobody's asking you how you are. Yes. So we have that memory boxes. So our memory boxes are actually co provided by another charity and they are given out to every child who registers and that has just a few little things in there already. And then the opportunity to put anything that they can remember their loved one by trying to think. I think that's about everything we do lots of other things in between, but that encapsulates most of what we do.

Mark Taylor 00:07:21

And I just like to sort of say I can imagine what the atmosphere is like there. I was involved in the Cynthia Spencer hospice as part of their, of their chaplaincy team for a while and, and I had the same experience. It was that sense of, you would imagine it looks and feels like this because people are obviously coming to the end of their life. But it's an absolute privilege to be around people and support people in that part of their life. But also the fact it's so life affirming in so many ways because there's nothing like facing these sorts of challenges where you suddenly realize what life is because it becomes very real very, very quickly. And so I can, having not been to your charity, I can really sort of understand what that that's like. And, and the other thing that struck me is like you families wanting to be anonymous sometimes so that you can just be yourselves wherever you are in that given day or like say those couple of days that you might be away but then also like to say, having people to share it with who understand where you are without needing it to be another family member or something, which is sort of intertwined with your. Your sort of immediacy, if it is with, let's say, whether it's your colleagues or whether it's your family. Because there's a certain. Not an expectation is the wrong way of putting it, but there's a way of being how you think you should be in order to make it okay for other people, let alone yourself, isn't it?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:08:43

Oh, yeah, very much so. And I, I think that's the thing in the UK and you know, we're talking education. Thank goodness it's now come into the curriculum. You know, we can talk more about that in a moment. But we don't talk about death. We know it's going to happen, but we don't talk about. We don't plan for it. We don't prepare our, our children that this is going to happen. We don't know when. And I think that's the thing and like you say, for them to come together and be able to just be open. And I think one of the things that amazed me when I first started so my journey with Harry's Rainbow is I started as a volunteer to support schools with training for bereavement and grief. That morphed into another role where I was an educator. No, Family liaison officer. Then I was a bereavement lead and now I'm project lead. So that's my history. But one of the things that first or really amazed me when I was a family liaison officer with the youth group is actually how much humor is involved in grief. And because they're. That they almost have this secret group and from an outsider's point of view, you think, oh, that's. That's very dark what you're saying. But to them it's, no, we're in this club together. And that's really empowering for them because if you imagine a child in a school and actually I can give you. If it's okay to give you my experience. So my experience and part of the reason that I worked for Harry's Rainbow is that my father died when I was 15, so he'd been ill, he'd had cancer and he died for. For two. He was ill for two years. Sorry. And then died. And at the time there was absolutely no support at all. And I went into school the very next day and my tutor said to me, can I have a word? And taken into the office and we sat one side of a big wooden desk and she said, no, I'm going to quote exactly how she said it. She said, you've had a bit of bad news. And I said no, because at that point I just. I couldn't even justify it to myself. I couldn't even, you know, it didn't seem real to me. It been less than 24 hours. And she went, oh, oh, well, anything, anything you need, let me know. That was the full extent of my support. So imagining a child or a young person in a class with their peers being the only one in that class who possibly who's been briefed of a parent or sibling, that's incredibly lonely and incredibly confusing. You don't know what to say, who to speak to, how to talk about it. People avoid you. People walk across the street when you bereaved because other people, they don't want to upset you and they don't know what to say. And this is coming back to the point that we don't talk about it in this country. So for those young people, especially teenagers, to have this, yeah, we're in this together. This is really awful, but we're in it together. Did you feel like that? Did you. Did that happen at the funeral? That happened to me. Oh, gosh. I'll tell you something funny that is so empowering for them. And that's why we do what we do at Harry's Rainbow. Yeah. You know, we. We aim to give children a brighter tomorrow for that reason, to say you're not alone.

Mark Taylor 00:12:04

And it is amazing, isn't it? Like, say things have changed, but, like, say not enough. As in, if you don't understand what to say or how to say it, then people just, like, say you have that sort of wide berth or like, say that sort of cross the road. And my thought has always been that the only thing you can really be is yourself. And so if you're being kind and authentic, then that's the most important thing and you will say the right thing for everybody concerned, you know, Otherwise you'll end up overthinking everything. And like I say, you end up not doing anything. And the other piece of advice I was given, which was one of the. One of the best things I ever heard, was that if you're not sure what to say, just ask someone how they are today.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:12:46

Yeah.

Mark Taylor 00:12:46

Because today might be fine. And it's like, yeah, I've had a really good day. And it might be that today is just one of those days where you feel like you've been hit by a lorry in a way that you don't know because yesterday was different and you can't identify with that. But it makes it all very immediate and it makes it in the moment. And that's a much easier answer for the person that you're talking to them because they can say, this is how I am today. But just the kind of how are you? It's just like an open ended question. It's like, well, we can't even begin to have this conversation because we're just sort of chatting. And I think the specifics of how you go about talking to people are really keen. If you've never heard those sorts of things or being involved in that, then how would someone know how to have those conversations?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:13:27

Absolutely. And I think that's exactly what I'm saying about we don't embrace it in the UK and that's where the training in schools is so important. And like I said, we'll talk about that as we go along. But that question, how are you? Is so open ended, isn't it? And how many times have we stood there on the street and wanted to say, do you really want to know how I am? Have you really got time for this? But how are you today? That's saying, I'm there, I understand. Or maybe not, I don't understand what you're going through, but I've got an empathy. I'm standing beside you and I'm just really interested to know how you are today. And that's if you want to tell me, that's great, I'm here. And if you don't, that's also great. And I think, you know, for peripheral, not family, but friends, it's just checking in with people, brief people, because what certainly what I found, what my mum found and what a lot of our families find is that up until the funeral, everybody, the support is there. People are bringing you casseroles and cookies and knocking on your door and flowers. Actually, that's not when you need the support as much, it's after the funeral when everyone's forgotten and everyone's gone back to their, their own lives. Naturally. Yeah, but that's when you need the support because grief is lifelong and I think, you know, everybody's been through grief but it can be very different if you've lost that parent or sibling at a young age. That, that, you know, grief is grief, but there is, there are degrees of it in a different way as well. And that, yeah, that post funeral is when it's the most lonely time because it's not. Let's just get on with life. Yeah, it's there forever.

Mark Taylor 00:15:19

And. And I think if you think back to either your own children or your experience as a child, you know, what you experienced during primary school is different to where you were when you were going through secondary school and beyond. So just even if you've not had that experience directly, I think understanding that, you remember that your perception of life was different at that point. So, like you say, the reaction is going to be different just because you are at a different age and what you're able to take from that. So in terms of the, like, say, the education and the school side of things, what is that kind of support that you're able to give and how does that sort of manifest itself sort of from someone who maybe is having to, or wanting to bring this more in or have that support within a school setting?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:16:04

So, as I said, that started when I did volunteering Paris Rainbow. Having worked as a teacher and then also head teacher and executive head, I knew how important it was for teams, staff teams, to understand how to deal with bereavement. So that's morphed over the last three years and we now have somebody called, we affectionately call them our Eldo, which is the education liaison development officer. So Eldo is much easier off the tongue than the long phrase. And basically we will come into school and we will train however many members of staff are needed. So we can either do groups of staff or we can do a whole staff, like an inset day or after school and we come in and we just talk about how to deal with bereavement. So from that first call that normally the business manager gets to say something awful has happened to it being passed to the head teacher, to the head teacher, having to talk to the team to say this has happened, and then how to interact and talk to the children and prepare them that this has happened to their friend or, you know, it might be the child that's died. And that's happened very recently in Milton Keynes, several times that a class have lost their classmate. But the language, the types of language to use, and we say use death, died, use grief, bereavement, because again, we want to be very kind and that's great, but actually saying something like, well, mum has gone to sleep, you know, she's gone to sleep forever. If you think of that, for a small child, that's incredibly frightening because one, well, what happens if I go to sleep? Well, I go to sleep forever. What happens if daddy goes to sleep? So it Sets up a whole host of other issues, even though that person is trying to be very kind. You know, we have to be really, really culturally sensitive as well. So saying things like, oh, dad is an angel now, which is lovely, lovely thought, but actually culturally, with Milton Keynes and surrounding areas are very diverse culturally that might not fit. So one of the things we say is talk to the family, what is it they want as well. So we can advise and we can guide and we can say you need to talk to the children and you need to, we advise that you say this. But actually culturally that might not fit. So you've got to go with the family as well. So yes, so basically we come in and we talk about grief and bereavement and how to talk to the children, the sorts of activities and tasks that they can do to support that, how to check in with the child and the family, that this is not just until the funeral, this is ongoing. And then that other bit about noticing behaviour. So every school, school behaviour policy, these should never be blanket because a child who's been bereaved may start acting differently, may start being angry, may start acting up because they don't know how to deal with their feelings. So we, you know, we say you've got to take that into account. Don't then give them a detention or whatever it is because they've kicked off in class. I'm making it very simplistic.

Mark Taylor 00:19:29

Yeah, of course.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:19:30

Because actually you've got to find out what's going on for that child. I mean, I remember sitting in class, staring out of the window, being told off, staring out the window when I was 15, but I was, I remember it vividly, it was in science and I remember staring out the window. I was just trying to make sense of what had happened because nobody talked about it. It was all very, your father's died, end of. And I remember that foodly and then being told off and then feeling quite cross because actually, you know, I was staring out the window for a reason, I wasn't being naughty. So that's, that's part of the training as well, is to, to say, so bereavement isn't a mental health, it's not considered a mental health or ill health issue. But if we don't talk to these young people, it can transpire into a mental health breakdown. Because you imagine, especially teenagers with hormones and all sorts of things going on and friendships to have that whirling around and that confusion. It, you know, that's, that's a real toxic mix of emotions going on. So that's part of the training is, you know, be sensitive to what's going on for these young people.

Mark Taylor 00:20:46

And I think like you sort of mentioned about the staring out of the window. It's always that sense for me of you on one side, you're sat there with this whole sort of life changing experience, probably thinking, what's the point of even being sat here? Because I should be doing something else or need the support or, you know, I'm just doing my normal life in adverted commas. And we seem to have been moving on and then, and then I'm. I think most people who've experienced, whether it's a parent or someone who's died in their family, is that immediately afterwards you suddenly have the reality that life still happens, you know, so we're here going, well, I suppose I need to make dinner or have a cup of tea or take the bins out, whatever it happens to be. And it's a very, very strange sort of, sort of, I don't know, sort of fence that you're straddling in some ways, because there is this reality going on as well as this complete sort of mind shift or experience or emotional change that's happening at the same time. And that's like, say you need the grace and the understanding and the real compassion for people to know that that's not something that just changes overnight, like you say, or because you've had one conversation.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:22:02

Absolutely. And there's a lovely image. I want to say it's Kubler Ross, but I might be wrong, so don't quote me on that one. But lots of people say, well, it'll get better over time, you know, it will get better, it'll diminish. But actually this image is brilliant. And it's three jars and there's a black ball in the jar. So to begin with, the black ball fills the jar. So that is the start of the journey of grief. That actually the grief just fills your whole life. And that understanding that actually that could be for years, it's different for every single person. And the five stages of grief doesn't exist. I'll talk about that in a moment. But anyway, going back to the jars, so the black ball fills the jar and the image is the black ball doesn't change size, but what happens is life grows around the jar, so there's more space in the jar and then there's more space in the jar, but the actual grief doesn't change, that doesn't diminish, it's just that over time Life can grow around it again. Because you're absolutely right. You know, from my personal experience and the families and young people have said similar, that that moment when you wake up, that tiny fraction of a moment where everything in the world is okay, and then you wake up and your conscious mind kicks in and it's. There's this awful black shadow hanging over us, you know, that is just all consuming. You've probably come across it, and certainly we've come across it at Harry's Rainbow. And me personally, that when you're certainly in those first couple of years, you start laughing at something and there's this sudden, why am I laughing? I'm not allowed to be happy. This awful things happen. So that's really confusing. How am I now supposed to be with this new world? And so that's where that job, we show that in the training that actually life throws around the grief over time. But just like you said earlier, it can hit you like a ton of bricks. Even 40 years on anything. Where did that come from? And it'll be a smell or a sound or something that suddenly, wow.

Mark Taylor 00:24:13

And I think that's the sense, isn't it, that we get very much into this linear world, you know, with this age. This is our part of life. But, you know, there's a whole different podcast about how maybe that's not quite the same. And now we're sort of, sort of just morphing around all of these things. So in terms of people that are trying to be within schools and they have maybe someone that they're trying to support, is it just a question of understanding the sorts of things that we've then spoken about? But then how do you then sort of fit that, like, say, within the policies, within the. The way that it works? Because a little bit like you said, that lead up to the funeral, it's like everything's okay in as much as we. We accept that life is different for the moment, and then the funeral finishes, and then life carries on. You know, for someone who's. Who's been through the funeral, now they're back at school, for example, and then, oh, it's okay. Because we're, you know, we're empathetic and we're supporting you now, but like you say, it might be next year or the year after or the year after that, and by which time, like you say, the policy kicks in because it's. This is just a bit of history now. So how does that sort of fine balance work? And is that. Is that a sort of a personal thing? Or the people related to that or is there sort of a practical thing within the, the education system or schools that can sort of help in that way?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:25:33

One thing that I think it would be really important and it's definitely not something that happens per se, but I personally think that a bereaved child should have a one page profile. So children with send have one page profiles, but actually if they had a one page profile that just went up with them through the school that was on the file to say this child was bereaved by on, then every teacher that comes into contact with that child will have that in their arm or their toolkit if you like. Because one of the things that is really important is just to check in with the child around. Anniversary times, anniversaries, year on year are really hard times. I mean particularly for the first two years, particularly for the first year when you go through every single thing for the first time, then this, the second year, but beyond that. So you know, my, my father died 9th of November. Actually. If somebody had just checked in and said, you know where the anniversary is coming up, how are you, are you doing anything, you know, you're marking it, I would then be able to say, oh, I'm fine, no, it's okay, but at least somebody's checked in. Or I might say, oh yeah, we're actually, we're going out for a meal as a family or whatever it is. So I would advocate for that, that there is a record of the bereavement because one thing that the government doesn't do, the government doesn't hold any records of children and young people that have been bereaved. There is no data. There was a, I can't think what the right word is, but there was a push to try and get that through the government last year and it didn't happen. So as a result of that, it's almost, there's no statutory guidance around it. But I would advocate for that in schools because actually it's important. So that's one thing that I think is really important. The other thing like you say, you know, policies, policies are only good as the date they're written. But to have maybe a two page bereavement policy to say if bereavement happens, this is what we do, this is the sort of language we use. These are the people you can contact, this is the signposting for the families and this is what you do ongoing would actually be really helpful because I know when I was a headteacher we didn't have a bereavement policy. And it wasn't until we had a very sudden bereavement during COVID that my brain went, gosh, I wish we'd had that. Because as a head, when you're in that situation, trying to deal with a bereavement and everything that you've got to manage around that, actually to be able to pick up that checklist and go, yeah, actually that's what I needed to do. That's who I needed to call. That's who I now need to support the family with. So like in Milton Keynes in the bereavement policy, put Harry's Rainbow in there. This is a charity you can. That's out there to support, register yourself, get them to give you a call. So that, that's what I would say for schools is actually a useful. Maybe let's not call it a policy, let's call it a bereavement checklist or toolkit because it's more likely to be used, isn't it?

Mark Taylor 00:28:47

Yeah, absolutely. And also you want as much bandwidth, whether you're like say the head teacher or someone who's working directly with a child in that scenario, because you want to be giving all of yourself and like, say you're still a professional, you're still doing what you need to do, but to have the bandwidth to know as long as I do what like say is on this checklist that I know that's taken care of, I don't have to be overthinking the rest of that and I can spend the energy I need in whichever way that sort of comes through for that child. And we won't go down this rabbit hole. But it does just suddenly thought to me, you know, it's really important from a government point of view to know what certain children did in the second week of May when they're in year six, less important to know about how they are in one of the most incredible things that can happen to a child's life. You know, going through a bereavement. Anyway, we won't go down that rabbit hole.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:29:35

We won't go down that route, but we could do. And we could spend a whole new podcast on that one.

Mark Taylor 00:29:39

Exactly, exactly.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:29:40

But. But, you know, there is a big point in that and, and particularly for. So, not particularly for. But where. Where there. So some families whose parent has died but they've. They've been ill and chance to say goodbye is one thing. The fact the families also that have lost a parent or a child very immediately, so very tragic circumstances and suicide and there Are we have got registered young people that have taken their life. We're talking teenagers and trying to manage and comprehend everything that then comes with that as well. You know that that's huge, ongoing. There's a lot of trying to unpick, there's a lot of guilt surrounding that. It's not, you know, there shouldn't be, but there is. There's lot of, lots of unanswered questions. There's no chance to say goodbye. There's no chance to understand. Actually, if you think about that happening to a child or a sibling. So a child that's lost a parent through suicide or a sibling, taking that with you through your life is enormous. And the layers build and build and build and build. So schools, schools can have a huge impact in supporting those young people. Schools and colleges, you know, anyone in education, I mean, we could talk universities as well, but that's a different story. But they can have a huge positive impact. But I do think it takes consciousness.

Mark Taylor 00:31:16

Thought and, and I was going to mention the, the relationship side of this because you can, you know, losing a parent must be, and I have no experience of this, different than losing your brother or your sister. And like you say, whether it's long because of illness or whether it's happened is a sort of literally overnight, so to speak. So I'm just curious and sort of in your experience, how, how does that differ in terms of how you support somebody or some of the ways that the relationships and the support that you give are going to be. Are going to be different in those sort of different scenarios?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:31:56

Yeah, that's a really good question, actually, because if a child has lost a sibling, they have got their parents there to give that immediate support and comfort. If they've lost the parent, they've only got one parent who's trying to juggle everything. And in fact, what we've got a beneficiary who summed it up beautifully and said, Mum, Mum must find it really hard because she's having to be mum and dad. She has to tell me off and be my comforter. And I, you know, that really was really powerful when she said that this is a teenager. Whereas a sibling, a sibling carries a lot of guilt themselves. I should have been there for my, my sibling. What could I have done? So it, the dynamic is also different because the parents are grieving the loss of a child and that's not the natural trajectory in any sense of the word. But this, but the child is suffering that loss as well. And the child. And what we find is the child want to upset the parents by saying how sad they are. So that there is a different dynamic there as well. I think in terms of the support, it's for a child that's lost a sibling. I mean, you're always supporting the family and the child. You know, that's part of Harry's Rainbow. We're there to support the child, but obviously we support the families as well. But I think with a child that's lost a sibling, it's talking about. But how do you, how do you feel about your brother not being there, your sister not being there? Tell me, tell me about them from your point of view. Because one of the things siblings fight, you know, let's be honest, I don't know many siblings that don't argue at some point in their life. Sometimes that death may have happened after an argument. And you can imagine that is enormous to carry with them. So it's really talking to them about actually. But that's quite normal for you to argue. I don't want you to feel sad that you have arguments because that's just what siblings do and it takes a lot of support. One thing we do work with is Harry's Rainbow, also work with some therapies. So we work with Arthur Ellis, who are a mental health support charity, Milton Keynes, and we also work with some play therapists. So for children that need that extra support, we've got that as well. And I think for schools, I know how hard it is to access support, but actually having this toolkit maybe with local support on there that can be contacted, not immediately, but at some point, especially for the child to be able to just offload and for the therapist to try and unpick what's going on for them, that's really important.

Mark Taylor 00:34:52

I think, like you said, that the, the last conversation, the last experience or whatever that happens to be, and it just reminded me, again, like I said, of the anniversaries. And I think sometimes you can also overlook the, the slightly grayer anniversary. So like you say you remember the day someone died, you might remember the funeral day. What you don't remember is the week before when something happened. And that kind of, you know, there's something going on today, but you're just not quite sure why it's had that impact. And I think sometimes just spending some time trying to remember what those things are, because it can give you a little bit of solace, I think, in, in that sense of just. I can see why, you know, my, for my, my, my dad died in November, but actually in something happened. There's something in October that always seems to happen this time, this time of year, but I'm not quite sure. And I think some of those, those sort of grayer dates. That's probably not the best phrase, but you understand what I mean. Have a really big impact too.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:35:51

No, I absolutely agree. And firsthand experience over the years when the fireworks started to. You know when fireworks start because they start from about the end of October, don't they? But. And I vividly. And still now, 40 years on, I. Something triggers in me and I feel really quite down and a bit introverted and. And I can't work it out until I realize it's the fireworks. And what happened was the night so that we went to the hospital, saw my dad and traveling back down the motorway, the fireworks. So 9th of November. Yeah. So the 8th of November, there was a firework display down the M25 somewhere. So I connected those feelings of seeing him in the hospital, although I didn't know it was the last time, but I connected the feelings of the fireworks with those feelings of seeing my dad for the last time. And so every single year that is that build up sort of five to six, seven, eight days before the anniversary. But, but you're right, actually. And then noticing, especially with children, they've gone a bit quiet. I wonder what's going on. Or they're acting out what's going on, all the anniversaries coming up because you don't always know it. You don't always know what's going on until you consciously think, oh yeah, that dates coming up, especially years down the line. But no, that's a really good point.

Mark Taylor 00:37:23

And, and I think one of the final things I'd like just to sort of make sure that we, we cover is, is. Is that sense of, of the timing thing, isn't it? Because it. We. I think very often we want to compartmentalize these things and it's like, you know, this happened like say 40 years ago or 10 years ago or. And the fact that it, it looks different over time, you feel different over time, but not unnecessarily in, in a linear way. And, and also I think just realizing that if you, if you imagine this is an ongoing relationship, like say with death, with grief, that's always changing. I think that maybe then is supportive in terms of how you then speak to somebody in whatever your role, whether you like, say you're the parent, you're a sibling, you're. You're a head teacher, whatever those things are. Because I Think at that moment it all becomes very real. Like we said a little bit like the saying how are you today? You know, it's. That seems important when you know someone's just lost somebody, but maybe not so much further down the line.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:38:23

Yeah. In fact I was thinking of. Whilst he was saying that, thinking of an example. So Jess, Harry's twin and she turned 21, I think it was last year, might have been the year before time disappears. And I was having a conversation with her about well how are you feeling? And she said I feel really weird, I want to celebrate, but I don't. And just that conversation around what Harry would have been 21 and what would he have been like and you know, would we still have been friends and would he have been into football and what would he have looked like? And so that was, that was really important to have that conversation around that for her, I thought something else actually was whilst you said that. So we had. We've. One of our beneficiaries read the most fantastic poem. I did a year long project called graffiti where 15 young people created huge or big lot, big canvases through the form of graffiti to explore and express their grief. I mean it was brilliant. Had an exhibition. Really, really good art, fantastic for exploring emotions. Anyway, one of our beneficiaries who has been very, very introvert found bereavement very challenging at the exhibition. Read the most fantastic poem. I mean no dry eye in the house. But it was all about her. Her brother had died, I think he was nine, something like that. Quite young. She was only, she was only about 4 at the time. But she's grown up wondering. And her poem was I wonder. And it was I wonder what my brother would look like. I wonder whether he'd be straight or gay. I wonder whether we'd eat the same things. And it was just like, wow, you know, she was four at the time, yet she's grown up to now being 15, 16, still wondering. And I think that's that loss of. And the unanswered questions. Well, I wonder what they would be like, what would they be doing. That's really powerful and, and there's something.

Mark Taylor 00:40:23

About that everything being encapsulated in like say in a moment of time, isn't it? This person only ever got to this age. I remember them as a 10 year old, as a, you know, a parent in their 30s or 40s.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:40:35

Yes.

Mark Taylor 00:40:36

And then all of a sudden like you say you're either the same age or slightly in that same realm or, or you know, they're not. They wouldn't be a child anymore, but I only ever knew them as a child. And that's a very. Like I say, it's a very interesting thing to be aware of. And having those conversations, I can imagine, are incredibly powerful and supportive because if everyone's perception is different, then it's only by having those conversations that allows that kind of collective understanding to come out.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:41:06

And I don't think this particular young person would have been able to do that without that support of Harry's Rainbow. Without the support. I mean, the school support has been. Okay. Could be a lot better. You know, one of the things that I'd really advocate for is it sound. It sounds dark, but it's not. But actually, in schools, to have a bereavement support group once, once a month or once every two weeks, that pastoral team, to have that chance for bereavement people to come and just be with other brief young people, because one person starts talking and you cannot stop them because they all start going. Yeah. And it's. It's this amazing conversation between them where you are an outsider, you do nothing. And it's hard. That happened. Yeah, Happened to me. Did that happen to you? Oh, gosh. Did that re. And that is really powerful. And like I say, this young person, to be quite honest, I was very concerned about her a year ago, but to see how she has grown and to be able to stand and read this very emotional poem to a room full of people, that's the power of support. And without it, without that support in schools and externally, there are a lot of young people that are. That are not going to thrive through grief. That sounds funny because no one thrives through it. But you can thrive if that support is there. And that's why the training is so important in schools. And it's not a tick box. Oh, yeah, we've done that training. This is really important. I think it should be just like safeguarding training every year. Let's just check in.

Mark Taylor 00:42:50

Yeah.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:42:50

Have you had any bereavements? Because actually, you know, teachers suffer that grief of the bereavement of a child in their class that is very rarely dealt with. But that is really real.

Mark Taylor 00:43:02

And I think, also, I think, as you mentioned about the person who read the poem is the fact that you need to hold people where they are. So like you say, if you were holding them a year ago, I mean, sort of, sort of in that sort of emotional kind of sort of glove, so to speak. But if you then could see how that was then going to look A year later is you're not fixing, you're not doing anything. You're just, you know, whatever the support they need from a professional standpoint, like, say in the training standpoint is really important, but just to allow them to be where they are and be whatever you need to be to support that person. And like you say, and I guess that's where the being involved in something like Harry's Rainbows over a number of weeks, months, years, becomes important because other people start to see other people's journeys as well. And so it's not just about the here and now. This has just happened and I don't know how to relate to anybody else, but I can see how maybe this path starts to change. Like I say, in that sort of how the world goes around in that sort of jar picture that you mentioned before.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:44:02

Yeah. And, you know, we've had people that joined at the beginning of Harry's Rainbow. They've been with us for 12 years. So Harry's Rainbow don't have. They don't have a waiting list and they don't have. And it's not like six weeks and you're out. You join if you join at 125, if you want to, you dip in and out. Because we know how important that lifelong support is and, you know, going back to schools and that pivotal part they can play in the support for the bereavement. And you're absolutely right. It's, you know, you're holding the space for that young person and you're holding the space for them to be who they need to be at that given moment in time. With helicoptering in, if you need to, to give therapeutic support or offer it. But that's really powerful to hold that space and say, I'm not expecting you to be any different than you are now, because we get it. We're here and we're here for you and we're not going to berate you for your behavior and we're not going to send you into timeout or whatever it is in secondary schools these days, actually, we're going to sit and have a conversation, say, right, what's going on?

Mark Taylor 00:45:10

And I know we said finally earlier on, but I think we could probably chat all day. But I just thought, just as we round up, you mentioned the idea of the five stages of grief, and I think maybe those. That's something that maybe people will have heard or they believe there's a certain pattern. So let's just finish on that in terms of, I say, your experience in how that people might be able to relate to that or understand that in a. In a different way.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:45:34

Yeah. So I mean you find if you type in grief in Google, that's one of the first things that comes up in a lot of the sort of grief journals. It's the first thing that comes up. And I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I believe it was written for service men and I don't know or service, sorry, service people. But I don't know whether it was for. Through loss or PTSD. But the premise is that there's these five stages that you've got denial, anger, etc. Etc. And then you just accept the acceptance. But that is just it. It. You can feel all of those in one minute. You might feel none of them. They're definitely not linear. It's not denial. Next. Next. It's. It just is not like that at all. And I think if there's one thing that people take away is to completely ignore the five stages of grief because they do not exist. Not, not like they're written. I think, yes. That you come to a piece with the bereavement because you can't control it. So over time, you know, there's that peace with what's happened. Yes, at the beginning you might go into denial, but it's not denial of what's happened. It's just a complete shutdown. It's almost like your body's brain's gone into shock. You can't compute what's happened. So you're not denying it. It's just. I can't compute it. So I think key takeaway is bin the five stages of grief. Ignore them. There's some lovely images, but ignore them. I'm sorry to whoever wrote it, but I think even they'd agree that it wasn't for grief and just accept that this is a lifelong journey which is full of huge range of emotions that you're trying to deal with all in one go and can be all consuming and overwhelming. And like you said, I think you said that beautifully. Is that just be there to hold the space for them.

Mark Taylor 00:47:31

Yeah. Now we always finish with the acronym FIRE by including feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment. What is it that strikes you when you see that? Whether it's one word or collectively?

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:47:45

Well, in fact, I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose three of them because I think, you know, in terms of that support, because that's what we're talking about, that support for people that have been bereaved. It's. It's Supporting them to develop that resilience over time. It's empowering them to. To thrive over time. You know, if we take that young girl who was able to read that poem, that's empowerment and actually it's to take the inspiration from people because there's some incredibly inspiring situations and stories, despite the absolute tragedy of grief. And, you know, let's just finish on A Detmold MBE who is unbelievably inspiring. And like I say, if anybody ever comes across her, you will never forget her because she took that just the most tragic grief, losing a child, losing a twin, and turned it into what is one of. I mean, I just think it's incredibly inspirational charity and what we do today. And not long ago this year, we registered our thousandth child and we all sat in the office thinking, this is not something to celebrate because this is the thousandth child of Milton Keynes that's been bereaved. And that's not touching the sides, really, but it's 1,000 children that we have been able to support their resilience and, you know, empower them to have a brighter tomorrow.

Mark Taylor 00:49:16

Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much for chatting. Do tell people where they can go and find out more information. And I guess the website is obviously the best place to start.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:49:29

Yeah. So Harry's Rainbow, if you type it in, Harry's Rainbow, Milton Keynes, the website will come up and just go on there. If you are in Milton Keynes or surrounding areas and you have it's a sibling or parent, please go in and register. It's really simple. So on the website, there's a page and there's a registration page. You put in your details. And one of our lovely family liaison officers, we've only got two, we're a very small charity. They will give you a call and talk through what you need. Please, please reach out because it is a very positive, empowering space to be. You will feel less lonely, you will have a brighter tomorrow and you will be part of, you know, a community that. That holds the space for you. And I think that's, like I say, that's a lovely way to put it. So, yeah, please go on, go and have a look.

Mark Taylor 00:50:24

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing all of this today. It's such an important conversation, I think, and I'm really pleased that we can have it and open up, hopefully somebody who's in there in a position to be able to help and support in whatever way that looks. And so, yeah, keep up the great work and keep helping all those amazing people who need that support. And, yeah, thank you so much again.

Marie-Claire Parsons 00:50:46

Oh, thanks for having me.

Mark Taylor 00:50:49

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.