Learning Together: Making Spaces Accessible & Inclusive for Everyone

MArk Taylor 00:00:40

Welcome back to Education on Fire. Today, I'm delighted to be chatting to Jenna Udenberg, and she's a lifelong resident from the North Shore of Minnesota and is a former music educator of 19 years. Now, she's used a manual wheelchair since the age of 8 due to juvenile idiopathic arthritis. But Jenna is a 2017 Blandin foundation community leader, a 2020 Bush fellow, and a 2025 Shannon Leadership Institute Fellow. Now writing for the Lake County Press in her column, local view from 4 foot 2. It inspires vulnerability and the sharing of lived experiences from the seated perspective within My Spokes. A Tapestry of Pain, Growth, and Freedom is Jenna's published memoir, and she's also the founder of the nonprofit above and beyond with youh, which works to increase accessibility and inclusion in Minnesota and beyond. Hello, my name is Mark Taylor, and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents, and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hi, Dana, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. It's always great to chat to somebody across the pond, so to speak, in the. In the US and this is going to be fascinating. As a fellow musician, a fellow educator, we're going to have a lot in common as well. So. Yeah, thanks so much for joining me today.

Jenna Udenberg 00:02:06

Yeah, thanks for having me, Mark. I'm excited for our conversation.

MArk Taylor 00:02:09

So why don't we start with above and beyond with you for those people who don't know about it, not come across it before, just give us sort of a little sort of bird's eye view of what it is that you do.

Jenna Udenberg 00:02:21

Yeah. So we are a small nonprofit. We are in our third year. We're situated on beautiful Lake Superior up in northern Minnesota, but we offer services throughout pretty much the whole world. Right. Minnesota and beyond is what we typically say. And so we focus on creating more accessible and inclusive spaces and places. So whether that's doing site audits to make sure, especially in America, that folks understand the Americans with Disabilities act or some of our code that we have here. But more importantly, above and beyond stands for the fact that you can go above and beyond the ada, you can go above and beyond any of the accessibility codes in the country that you live in, the reality of the codes that we get primarily are that that's the floor, it's not the ceiling. And the biggest thing is with is again, that education side. Right. That we want to do it together. It's all about partnerships. It's all about how can we be on this growth mindset, on this growth journey together. And it's never a negative thing or a shameful thing, because we all do better when we know better. Right? And so even myself, as somebody who's been a wheelchair user for 38 years of my. There's still new things I'm learning every single day about the beautiful disability community and culture. And then the capital U stands for my last name, Udenberg, because my little kindergartners, little 5 year olds could not say Udenberg. Sometimes I can't. And so it's just a nod to my music education career of 19 years that we want to do it with you. And it's about the education of becoming more inclusive, becoming more accessible, and just being better humans to each other and realizing that all of us have needs. So let's just meet everybody's needs and live life together and thrive together.

MArk Taylor 00:04:09

And I love that, that a lot of these things that we know we have to be aware of are our base level, because, you know, we need people to be supported and to live in a world that supports everybody. And so, of course, we need safety nets in place. But the reality is, is that what do you need in this world? What do I need in this world? Let's like, say collaboratively. If we work together to make sure that's the. That's what we need, and whether that's a physical thing, an emotional thing, we want to actually be in engaging conversations to make that happen. And then, like, say whatever the framework is or whatever the things that statutory we might have to do, it just takes care of itself in many ways, because of course that's what's going to happen, because it's how the. How life should be. But I think, like, say, understanding that it's not, we just need to do this because someone's told us so is a really sort of different mindset, isn't it?

Jenna Udenberg 00:04:57

Yeah. I just had a public speaking experience a few weeks ago and talking to 500 female leaders in our region, and, you know, I left with a thought of, like, why do we need federal mandates to tell us just to be a good human.

MArk Taylor 00:05:16

Yeah.

Jenna Udenberg 00:05:17

Like, we should be doing this no matter what. We shouldn't have to wait for laws, we shouldn't have to wait for lawsuits. We shouldn't have to wait for something to be so glaring for us to go, oh, I should build a ramp. Oh, I should put a power door in. Oh, I should make sure that somebody can wheel under a water fountain. Oh, I should train my staff. That no matter what somebody looks like, acts like, talks like, communicates like. Right. Traverses like, no matter how they represent in your small business, large business, industry, you know, as a consumer based society, just meet their needs. And I don't know about, you know, over the pond in the uk, I don't know what you guys call where you get disability services, especially in the education world, but over in America we typically say special education. And it's a new. I shouldn't say new, but kind of a newer concept in disability community and culture is like, we're so tired of the word special. Many of us are. I'm, I'm tired of it. Right. Like there is nothing that's more special about my needs than. Than your needs, Mark. Right? Like you have needs, you need roof, you need food on your table, you need heat, you need warmth, you need love, you need physical touch, you need, you know, like so, so if it needs to look a little bit different because I'm a wheelchair user, there's nothing more special about my needs than yours. And there's nothing more special about your needs than mine. Right. They're just, they're just needs and we all have them, so. And then I would also say in America too, we're getting to the point of like, where it's like special educations or resource classrooms or whatever. Like those are spaces in which you go to have your needs met. It doesn't give you as the child or you as the teacher, this new label. Oh, that you're a special kid.

MArk Taylor 00:07:11

Yeah.

Jenna Udenberg 00:07:11

You're a special teacher. You know, so again, words matter. All, all the things. But yeah, so, so many, so many deep things to, to talk about and, and unearth, Right?

MArk Taylor 00:07:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why these conversations are so, so important and it's the reason I love podcasting is because we can have a proper conversation about that as opposed to. Can you come on to my TV segment for the three and a half minutes and try and get your point across or say this, or be part of this, or make sure it looks like this. Well, you don't have time to have a conversation. Like I say, just the. This is where we are, this is what we're doing, this is what we're trying to do it. This is the way the terminology works here. I do like it. I don't like it. It should be changed for this. Whatever it happens to be that you want to dive into, let's sort of talk about that in, in sort of real. In real, real world life is, so to speak. And you sort of mentioned there about sort of rooms and sort of environments for people. So take me into sort of some of the work that you do, sort of from a more educational standpoint and like you say, for places that need to be equipped in a way that maybe you can understand and you can see which other people should understand, but necessarily don't necessarily do that in that particular mindset.

Jenna Udenberg 00:08:23

That's a great question. We have four hours, right, Mark?

MArk Taylor 00:08:25

Yeah, exactly.

Jenna Udenberg 00:08:27

Just kidding.

MArk Taylor 00:08:27

It's going to get dark, but it's not bedtime, right?

Jenna Udenberg 00:08:31

Dirty, cold. So we're good over here. I think the biggest thing is like, intent, right? Are you being intentional in how you're designing your programming? Are you being intentional in how you're designing your spaces? Are you thinking of all different folks that can come walking, wheeling, traversing, communicating, talking, speaking, signing, you know, all the different ways that people represent in life? And to think that we're going to create programming that's perfect for every everybody is unrealistic. To think we're going to create a space that's going to meet everybody's needs and nobody needs to have curious conversations is unrealistic. Right? But if we can use principles of universal design, if we can use the principle of asking curious questions, if we can tap into the statement that disability community has championed for decades over here in America and pretty much worldwide, I would say of nothing for us without us. Like, so often we have people doing things to us, we have people doing things for us, but we very rarely have people doing things with us. So in little small pockets throughout the world, I think that is changing. And it's like, oh, well, that's silly. Mark's coming to my dinner at my house tomorrow night. I should maybe just call and be like, hey, Mark, do you have any dietary needs? Do you have any mobility needs? Do you need, you know, like, all the things. Because we as humans just make so many assumptions. Like, you know, and especially, you know, here in America with the ada, it's like, well, every bathroom has to be accessible. Well, no. ADA came into law in 1990. It's the largest unfunded mandate in American history. So how do you have buildings that were in existence before 1990 come up to that? Especially being in rural Minnesota and rural America. Right. Budgets are much tighter. Access to grants and other funding is much smaller. So we just have all of these assumptions. And until certain aspects of life impact our own everyday life or our loved ones, Everyday life, we just don't get it. Right. I also think there's so many misnomers, misunderstandings, misconceptions about disability, community and culture. You know, everybody thinks that disabled folks are poor. Is there a good percentage of us that are at poverty or below? Absolutely. Does that need to be changed? Absolutely. And yet, especially with the baby boomer generation coming through, right. Disability is just a natural process of life. It's not good, it's not bad. It just is. And so anybody and everybody is going to experience it in some way, either personally or through relationships. And, you know, when we have one in four Americans identifying as disabled and with how negative that connotation still is, you know that that number is much larger. Right. Because people aren't going to identify to something that they see or they feel society is seeing as a negative. So I think the more that we can just have these raw, honest conversations and just find a safe space, like that's the biggest thing with above and beyond with you and just the way that I live life, sometimes I'm over sharing or an open book, sometimes to my own detriment. But I feel like people won't learn until we share our stories, you know, until there's that impact of the heart or of the mind and then those two come together to then create better actions. And. Yeah, so I think we just have to have those conversations. And now that, you know, I'm middle aged and something happens in our brain when we become middle aged and we have less filter on our mouth, that's probably part of what helps me tell my story and be out here on podcasts and in the world a little bit more. But also it's just a part of the journey of disability. You know, as 38 years in, I've seen a lot, I haven't seen it all, nor do I ever want to see it. All right, it's rough. I'm not going to paint this rosy picture that disability is this most amazing thing and everybody should just run out and get a disease or run out and get a car accident, or not saying that. But in the same respect, when life happens, it's a beautiful community to become a part of. If you're a willing participant, if you're willing to see that life can look beautiful from a different vantage point. So I think it really just comes down to your, like I said earlier, your intentions and your perspective and also making sure that you're connected authentically and organically to folks within disability community.

MArk Taylor 00:13:38

And it would seem to me that, I mean, it's such a great mantra to live with anyway, isn't it? But if you, if you're in a position and you suddenly think, I haven't thought this through, I'm having an event, or the, the building that I'm going to use for something isn't going to be supportive for somebody being kind and honest and saying, this is where we are, what can I do? What would be supportive? What would you think would be helpful? How can I help then? Then, like I say, you're solving whatever problem happens to be, whether the problem should have been there or not. And then, but that's the, that's the same in anything. It's like you say you're turning up at a dinner party and it's like, oh, I actually don't eat chicken. Oh, okay, well, I probably should have thought of that before. But what can we do to solve that? Whatever, whatever it happens to be. And, and yeah, I'm also sort of curious as to what's your response in that situation when someone sort of comes to you and says, we can foresee an issue or there's something that's about to occur. How do you, how would you like other people? How would you like to respond in order to support that person or, or to at least like, say, create that atmosphere that you've just been so eloquently speaking about.

Jenna Udenberg 00:14:51

Yeah, I think it's just like you said, you know, that you're just honest. And at least for me in my years of lived experience, like, you can really read people's intentions and heart about it. Right. Even when there's wrong words used or, you know what I mean? Like you, you just read people after so many years of, of living this kind of life. But I think the biggest thing also is like, just tell us and show us what you have available. Because so often we've experienced, I've experienced. Well, we're 100% accessible. Well, what does that actually mean? And that many times is just continuing ableism. So the belief that we as non disabled people know better. Right. So you're putting your bias on this space or on this programming or on this meal to say, like, I have thought of everything. I am the king or queen of this castle and therefore. Right. I have also had the extreme opposite, especially with some of our state park folks. And these are amazing people. And like, they come and they just profusely apologize nonstop because they can't make accessible trails and they can't. I'm like, we are on the rugged north shore of Lake Superior, like You have glacial rocks, you have bedrock, you have clay. Like there are just infrastructure things in nature and creation that you can't, unless you're going to spend a billion dollars to make, you know, a ten foot path, like that's going to be iced over for six to eight months out of the year anyways. Like, you know, so it just comes down to reasonable accommodations. It comes down to having those conversations. And then like we said, like, ask those curious questions because, like, why go spend a billion dollars if folks don't even want to do that? But you could spend a billion dollars and do 50 million things.

MArk Taylor 00:17:01

Yeah.

Jenna Udenberg 00:17:02

Than this one 10 foot space. Right. And then also I feel like many times folks are like, well, we have a ramp. And it's like, okay. And I'm trying to break this in my own mind as well as others. Sorry, I feel a sneeze. So sometimes we have that belief, like, well, if we have just a ramp, then everybody can come in. Well, yes. And Right. I've met folks in my personal life that have vestibular needs. So like their vision causes different things. So walking up a ramp of a grade can cause other auras and other things for their bodies instead of just being able to have a handrail and walk up two stairs. So it's so hard. Right. Because it needs to be a yes. And, and so it's just that continual conversation. But I really think kind of combining your last question and this question too. One thing that I just learned and had this experience with is like being out at restaurants or at conferences and the newer thing is like, we're gonna put high tops everywhere because then people can stand and eat their hors d' oeuvres and have their drinks and all the things. But hey, that's great. I can't reach up there. So then I'm holding everything on my lap and I'm either getting a crink in my neck looking up at everybody, even if they're not super tall, but if my eyes are at 4 foot 2, literally, because that's my title of my column, local view from 4 foot 2. Or I'm just looking at everybody's butts. Like, how professional and comforting and all the things, you know, Or I'm eating off a bar stool seat where everybody else has sat, and then that's where my plates and stuff get to go. Right. So it's just trying to put yourself in other people's shoes, but not putting the pity in it. I mean, figuring out empathy, figuring out how to just think through spaces and like, I Am very honest of like growing up rural, I didn't have a lot of connection to disability community and culture. And so really I grew up in the non disabled world and just happened to be disabled. And so fighting the imposter syndrome from time to time, just knowing that my lived experience isn't as rich within my community that I'm speaking with and for and doing work with and for. But I also feel like that's also a strength for our nonprofit as well because we can see it from both sides. And so then when we have these conversations with industry people and owners and all the things, it's like I can get in that little crevice of like, so you're leaving 10% of the market out the door. Oh, we're rural, we're an older population, we're aging and we're becoming more disabled. So now you're going to leave 80% of your people out or oh, you don't have enough workers. But we have this huge, beautiful, amazing, hard working group of retirees and baby boomers and unfortunately folks that have to go back to work because health insurance is so ever loving. Expensive. Right? But like, who would you want to employ? This person that needs to sit on a stool behind your point of sale, that's gonna work their tail off because that's the, the life experience they have. They're gonna make connections with your consumers, right? They're gonna make those relationships and so they can only work three hours a day, but man hours a day, that's going to be fantastic. But a lot of people go, oh, it's only three hours a day. I need somebody to be here for 12 hours and they have to be able to lift 80 pounds and they have to do you know what I mean? So it's a large conversation from both sides of the employment world. It's the large conversation from both sides of the education desk. It's a large conversation of just us being humans and rubbing shoulders when we go to the grocery store. You know, I love finding sometimes the shortest typically lady in the grocery store be like, hey, can I borrow your height? You're talking to me. It's like, yep, I got long arms and I am tall when I'm able to stand. But yep, nope, I just need that can of soup up there. Can, can you grab that for me? Oh, you just made my day. Well, that's awesome. You made my day because I get my soup and I made your day because you feel like you're tall.

MArk Taylor 00:21:42

And it just reminds me so much of the fact that so many of these things that we talk about because we're trying to fit it into what we perceive something needs to look like. So your example about the worker is the fact, well, we need just one person to do this and work in this way. Well, you don't actually have to do that. It's just what you believe is the case or traditionally is the case or whatever. If you reframe it like you said, you know, this is my objective. If I want to sell more, I want a more diverse opportunity for conversation, then actually, oh, it can look so different. But I then see it's important to me. So therefore it becomes a no brainer, which seems so ridiculous. But that, that's the thing, isn't it? It's just that how's it going to be? And as an educator, you know, it's that so many things which are difficult in the world is because school looks like this, the classroom looks like this, and you have to do it for this amount of time in this way. Well, you don't actually have to other than the fact that's all we've done. So if you just change that framework and you change the way it works and there was all of a sudden your targets of, yes, more people in school, more people engaged more and people getting the grades, if that's important to you, would happen anyway. But you're not prepared to make the simple changes or to change the philosophy or the idea to, to do a bigger thing of that. So yes, in some ways it's so straightforward, but as we know, not so straightforward at the same time. So. And speaking of schools, tell us a little bit about your sort of music education experience. You said you were doing it for 19 years. That's, that's a. People having sort of gone through your world and chance to sort of share in that music, which is, which is my passion as well.

Jenna Udenberg 00:23:21

Yeah, it's. It's always funny because I always call my students my kids and then everybody assumes that I'm married and have, you know, this large family and I'm like, nope, I am unmarried and have no biological children. I just happen to have like thousands of kids. And once you're my kid, you're always my kid. So. Yeah, so 19 years. I started my career just with a studio at a local music store. Also went back to my alma mater and helped teach trumpet as my primary instrument. So teach trumpet lessons and sectionals and that kind of stuff. Got my undergrad and started working in a parochial school. And that was really cool. But I taught in the gym, a cafetorium and in the kitchen. So you can imagine having snare drum lessons and alto sax lessons and trumpet lessons in an all stainless steel industrial kitchen. It's amazing that I don't have more hearing loss than I already do at my middle aged years. And then in the gym it was super funny because there was understage storage and because I'm a wheelchair user, obviously we couldn't use the stage for practices. So my kids would literally have to climb in this big underground or under stage tunnel to get all of our music stands and all of the things out. Yeah, I mean the stories that I could write and share just in one of my locations was pretty, pretty interesting that I did become a public music teacher. I came back to my alma mater and that was kind of an interesting story because our high school got to be a new one built in 2005 and my oldest sister was an educator at that time and eventually became one of the administrators. But as they were in that building process again, so often people just think about, well, it's got to be accessible for students. And I kept pushing her like, hey, I, I might come back to our hometown. I might want a job as a band director or a general music teacher or choir teacher. So what aspects are you going to be putting in this building right now and just be. And it's not about me, right? You could have an administrator, a superintendent, a paraprofessional. Like you could have any employee, even a custodian. Right. Like her, a cook that is disabled in some way, shape or form, needing those accommodations within your building. And it was kind of shocking to like flip that script 20 some years ago in this process. And who knew that I'd still be doing this this many years later. But in that time that I also started working at a charter school and our school district here that had three different schools. So throughout my 19 years, I think I was in like six different buildings and four different districts and that kind of stuff. And the one space that really helped me understand a new er, sentence to me from disability community is it is not my medical condition that disables me and it's not my wheelchair that disables me, but it's the environments that I get put in that disabled me. And so in that experience, you know, I was hired to be in a school that had a, a flat band room so I could get everywhere because there was ramps everywhere, there's elevators everywhere and everything was flat. But then different retirements and different things happened and I got what we Call stranded up to a different school. And that choir room and music room was what they call tiered. So big cement steps to make the tiered space. And I never felt more uncomfortable in my life, except for when I was a student and I was in rooms like that because it was like. But now, flipping the script, I'm in charge of these 30 to 80 kids that are in my room every 50 minutes, and I have to physically be able to get to them for a bloody nose, get to them because they're puking, get to them for XYZ medical need that I'm responsible for. But when processes put you in places that make you more disabled and then you're not given the supports that you need to be successful and to keep your kids safe, it was just shocking and sad for all of us involved. And so I think that's just the. The hardest lesson was, like, that many years into my career, after being inspired by my middle school band director and seeing the fight that my middle school band director and high school band director had to go through to make life accessible for me, to the point where I rode in my director's car, which in this day and age, you would never be allowed with liability and all the things, right? But that was before we had accessible buses or enough accessible buses. And really, my teachers at that time are told like, hey, the bus has to stay here because we have to get everybody else to and from school. We don't care about Jenna. So what? That you have state band contests. So what? She's your lead trumpet player. So what? She brings back all these awards. So what? She. So, you know, it's just so hard. And many times throughout that career, too, leading up to my career and through my career, it was always like, well, why are we doing all this for one kid? So you need to have a hundred kids to make it worth your time, effort, and money like that. That feels gross, right? Especially if you are that one kid or your child is that one kid. So lots of great experiences. You know, as a music educator. I am also a middle school LEGO robotics coach. So I'm in my 13th season now. We're actually heading to competition this weekend. And so I've always been a different breed, right? I was like, oh, you really love middle schoolers. What's wrong with you? But for me, especially with my disability and, you know, chronic pain and fatigue, that just comes with arthritis, it was like, oh, I like being around the middle schoolers because you just never know what attitude you're getting. One moment at a Time. Right. You don't know what hormones are coming in. You don't know what energy that you can kind of siphon from them and then turn it into your own energy. But, yeah, so, you know, it's great. And the biggest thing, too, is like, as you well know from the education side is like, the only way that we're going to change this world is by the next generation and by doing better, not just for them, but again, with them. Right. So the same principles that I talk about within disability, community and culture apply across the board, no matter what group of people or demographic we're working with.

MArk Taylor 00:30:15

And I think it's interesting, like when you were talking about, you know, having a new building and, you know, all the options which are available to you, there's nothing easier than starting with a blank canvas to make sure that you put things in place that are going to be supportive for everybody and not to be able to make the most of that opportunity for the foreseeable future for anybody. Like I say, because it's not about any one person or two people or even 100 people, because you want that building to be there for hundreds of years so that you don't know who is going to be coming through those doors at any particular moment.

Jenna Udenberg 00:30:49

And.

MArk Taylor 00:30:50

And you want to make it, with the greatest knowledge and understanding that you have, accessible and supportive for everybody that's going to do that. And. And it always amazed me, the things about the music rooms and that sort of thing on different levels, because, you know, as a percussionist myself, you know, lifting timpani and tubular bells off of risers and all this sort of stuff, it's like sort of health and safety and inverted. Inverted commons is really important sometimes, until it's not really worth it for that one thing, so it'll be okay. And like you were saying, all these things are important. We need to make sure it's all accessible. And so it doesn't really work for us, whatever that reason is, you know, the wrong funding or the wrong person, the wrong. Whatever it happens to be. And again, it comes back to that attitude, that understanding, you know, why are we doing this? How can we make it better? How can. How can we. How can we do what we can do with the situation that we've got? Because, like I say, if you're in an old building, then, okay, we could knock it down and build a whole new one. If that's not practical, how can we use the skills, the people around us, the organizations that can create the environment that we need, whatever that is, and it comes back. I also reminds me of this. I had a conversation with Al Kingsley who, who's over here, and it was just related to buying computers. And it was that sense of we want to give everyone, you know, redo the IT in the school, and it's going to cost this amount of money. We need this number of computers, which is never a great place to start because obviously things move on. And then the answer is no, because we don't have that money, rather than the answer being how do we find that money? And then because there's always more money to find, you know, in these computers, even if you were given a load of money would be obsolete and then you'd have to buy some more. So as soon as you change that whole mindset to how can we finance this? How can we go about it? How can, how can we create this ongoing, like I say, growth mindset journey, that whatever we need at any given moment, you know, computers aside, doesn't make any difference. We can make this happen. So if we have a room that's not actually supportive for everybody, how can we change that? And if we can't change that, can we change the room that we're using it for, to make a difference? Because like I say, as soon as everything's on the flat, then I've even got a, you know, everything that I could even plan and be part of is going to be very different. So I think, like I say, that those conversations in the mindset is the biggest change, more than the money and the, and the situations that we find ourselves in.

Jenna Udenberg 00:33:16

Yeah. Isn't it funny when, when we, as the adults or the teachers are like, you need to change your perspective student. You need to have a growth mindset student. And then I just want to be like, kid, take this mirror and hold it up in front of your adult. Right. Like, and to myself too, like when I'm coaching and that kind of stuff too, like, wow, I just failed that. But it's, it's. What do we do in those moments? What do we do with those lessons learned? And if we just keep doing, repeating the same issues, then we're not learning, we're not changing.

MArk Taylor 00:33:47

It's. I, I do find it fascinating and I just think, like, I think I love the, the mirror analogy because it's. That kind of. It happens all the time, doesn't it? And, and like you said, as soon as we think we've sorted it or that, oh, yeah, I'm used to doing this. I'm an, I'm an expert in this one thing and then it's like, yeah, and it's. And the other thing that always reminds me of is I see someone doing it and you just start to judge. And I'm just like, don't do that. Because, you know, what have you done today? What? What? You know, what were you thinking before? It's like, you concentrate on your bit and make sure that's all fine, which is a life's work. Forget everybody else.

Jenna Udenberg 00:34:23

In Minnesota. Keep your eye on your own bobber. Like, there you go. Yeah. But it is funny too, because I don't know about you as a musician, but sometimes it's so hard, especially, you know, in this virtual world of listening to online things if, if the audio isn't mixed well or it just isn't the same virtually versus in person. Right. And sometimes it's so hard because I'm like, I can't, I can't listen to it. And then I'm like, I'm being judgy. And then it's like, nope, I was trained for like 30 some years of my life that. This is flat, this is sharp, this is too fast, this is too slow. You know what I mean? So it's like, what is your trading and what do you need to like, go and just enjoy? And then also like, well, maybe I can't enjoy because this is my training and that's okay. This is just who I am and you know, all the things that I bring to the table. But yeah, and that whole, like you said, you know, sometimes it's easier to start with a blank canvas, I would say. But then sometimes I feel like it's harder because everything is in the abstract.

MArk Taylor 00:35:29

Yes.

Jenna Udenberg 00:35:30

So when you are in an older building, people can see that, oh, there's eight stairs or there's two stairs. Oh, there's this weird half level, split level, something or other. Oh, the plumbing is this way. So therefore we need this kind of toilet or this is where the bars can go or, you know what I mean, you have that physical. They can see it, the, the human mind. But then when you go to like blueprints and plans, everyone's like, oh, yeah, it's fine. And like, I was an experience. Several weeks ago, brand new city hall was put up and I wheeled up the ramp backwards and I saw the sticker on the door that said, you know, power button, da, da, da. And I'm like, okay, it's a power door, but. Where's the but button? And in the process of trying to find the button, I almost fell down the Stairs, because the contractor and this building was built in 2024. I wheeled by the cornerstone brick, and literally the. The power button was put at the top of the stairs, not the top of the ramp, not on the wall of the building, but hiding behind the ramp by the stairs. And then to top it off, it didn't trigger the door that was across from you so you could safely get in the door. It opened the door right next to you, so it either shoved you down the stairs or shoved you back down the ramp. So it's so hard, right? Like, there just has to be so many conversations at so many levels of like, what are we dealing with? And what is best? But then also I think using technology, like, I know we have a local architect that I talked with a couple years ago, and he has like the VR system where he can just put his drawing in and then he can walk, traverse, wheel, and share those files with other people to be like, hey, Jenna, what do you think about this? And I was like, oh, well, I'm down here at 4 foot 2 and this is what I see. But you're up here at six foot six and this is what you see. So, yeah, it's all about perspective, right? It's all about that. Yeah. Looking in the mirror, the growth, mindset. Also looking at, you know, our own unconscious biases. Right. Having that self reflective leadership time and having those trusted, safe spaces where we can have those conversations where we can be vulnerable and yet know that we're safe and growing and that we're respected and cared for in those spaces as we journey through becoming a better human.

MArk Taylor 00:37:56

Yeah, love that. Now, the acronym FIRE is really important to us here on the podcast, of course, and by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience, and empowerment. What is it that strikes you when you either see that collectively or does one of those words sort of jump out for you?

Jenna Udenberg 00:38:14

I'd say the first two that popped out were resilience and empowerment. Sometimes it's both and. Right. So for me, for resilience, I know that that word has been used to describe me in my story a lot in life. And then also because of being a disabled child. You know, I always say that I'm very glad that I acquired my disability at a young age just because I didn't know any different. Like, I still have memories of walking and skipping and cartwheels and all those things, but I just didn't know any difference. You just live life, you accommodate, you adapt. Right. But on the flip side, I also feel like we do a disservice to the generations that come after us because we are always like, oh, well, kids are resilient. Oh, women are resilient. Oh, this minority group is resilient. You know what I mean? And then we use it as an excuse to continue to perpetuate the discrimination or adding more barriers or whatever that is. Right? And then empowerment stood out to me too, because I feel like one of my core values for me is I want to make sure that the next generation is learning from the stories that I've had to live through. Because we don't have enough days and hours and minutes in every life that we're given to live life and learn all the lessons, right? We need to learn from others so we don't have to go and make the same mistakes. And if we don't learn right, then history repeats itself. So for me, it's empowering that next generation of disabled leaders. It's empowering everyone to just see everyone and that that's okay. Like, people don't get to cancel that just because it's not a good political thing or it's not, you know, or it's too expensive of a thought process or whatever it might be. But that being empowered, that. That knowing your own self, knowing your own worth, it's not something to be feared by others. It's just something that we should be encouraging everyone to figure out who they are.

MArk Taylor 00:40:20

I love that. And I think just finally you sort of mentioned about the blank canvas thing, and I think that's such an important thing because so often you know what you don't want, but you don't know what you do want. And. And it just reminds me, just a quick story by. When we were getting married, we had the caterer and said, you know, so. So what would you like? You know, and we were like, I don't know. I had no idea. We were sort of going round and round and round. And then it was that sense of, well, do you want this? No, I definitely don't want that. And would you like this? No, I definitely don't want that. And it was that sort of whittling down of what we didn't want from having those questions to find out what we did want. And I think so many of the things that we've spoken about today, it's the same kind of thing, you know, well, we could have this building looking like this. Well, I don't really know if I want that, but I don't want it to look like this, and I don't want it to look like that. And I would like this to be the case and you sort of find where you are. And it's one of the things I love about AI at the moment is the fact that, so it's. If you've got your blank piece of paper, it's like, I don't know what to write or how to get started with this. But at least if you've got something, you know, some points, some research, some whatever that you can use to then fill out some content or whatever it happens to be in one's given circumstances, having somewhere to start with I think is important and I think to sort of go full circle, having conversations with people who know what you want the world to look like and what it needs to look like. And like you say, whether you're in a wheelchair or whatever disability, you may or may not have the ability to say, I want it to look like this because. Or can we have a conversation as we're making this change or setting up this organization or whatever it happens to be. And so I think, as always, that human kindness, that human connection, just the conversation and forget all the shoulda, woulda, coulda, let's just do this in, in life, in reality, as we would like to be communicating and every day is really important. So thank you so much for your, your insights. It's been fantastic and I've learned a lot and tell people where they can go and find out more and the work that you're doing and how you're supporting people.

Jenna Udenberg 00:42:19

Yeah. So best way to connect with us and also learn more about us is aboveandbeyondwithyou.org and then you can learn about our consulting and training and all the different services we provide. You can also see a link to my memoir above and be just kidding, my memoir within my spokes and that is available on Amazon or wherever you buy books. And then in the social media world, you can connect with us above and beyond with you on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

MArk Taylor 00:42:49

Brilliant. And we'll have links to all that in the show notes as well, so people can click straight through and get all that info. And yeah, Jenna, again, thanks so much. Indeed, I really appreciate it.

Jenna Udenberg 00:42:58

Thank you, Mark.

MArk Taylor 00:43:00

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.