Let Play Lead the Day – Championing children’s freedom to play

Ben Case 00:00:39

Actually, if the child is truly at the center of what we're doing, what they're doing at home is so important and can sort of shape what you're doing in school with them as well. And that's where Tapestry, I think can help because you get that information back from home and it's that two way communication as well. You know, everyone's busy. It's not always possible to grab every parent and say, oh, this is how we got on today. But if you can put it onto something like Tapestry, it's fantastic. Videos as well could be completely AI generated. It's getting so powerful and so realistic that actually we need to teach them to question what they're seeing at every point. And that's, you know, for all age children, I think. And to me that is one of the skills that if you focus on just teaching them a topic, they might not have the skills to problem solve. And that's what we need to cope in the world. I think the video though, was part of a project to promote this play, if you want, and make sure that people understand the value of this play. And Amber's doing an amazing job of promoting this and everything. And it was just an honour for Tapestry to be involved in that and help launch it and everything.

Mark Taylor 00:01:52

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast. The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world. Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hello. Today I'm chatting to Ben Case from Tapestry and we discuss the results from their annual survey which includes how AI is being used in early year settings. Ben talks about how he uses AI in his professional life, but also how AI tools have supported him personally to explain the changing world to his own children. Links to Tapestry and the new film we discuss, Let Play Lead the Way are in the description. And please share this episode with friends, family and colleagues who you think will be supported by this and let's make a positive difference to the world together. Hi Ben, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. I think this is our third conversation from way back when. I think the first one was something like episode 147 and then 361, I think the next one was. So it's great to have a recurring conversation and especially with an organization that's making such a difference to so many people's lives. Yeah. So thanks so much for being here.

Ben Case 00:03:04

Great, great to be back. Thank you for having me back.

Mark Taylor 00:03:07

So one of the things I get asked so much recently is all related to AI. It's about how it's affecting so many people and a lot of people scared about it or worried about how it's sort of going to sort of, I say, infiltrate their life. That's probably not the right phrase, but you sort of know, know what I mean? So I know you've sort of recently done a survey through tape about that. So just sort of take us in what it is that you were surveying for in sort of those initial findings.

Ben Case 00:03:33

Yes, I mean, yeah, so I mean this was the sixth year of doing a tapestry survey and it's it. We kind of were just sort of asking the sector what their views were and one of the questions was do, do you use AI? And actually what came back was a higher percentage of people in early years, especially in early years tend to use AI to support their day to day running of their lives. Now for us that was quite interesting because we thought, oh, people are standing off away from it and they're a bit skeptical of it and everything. But I think what, when you dig deeper into it, there's a lot of parts of AI which people are using, such as helping them with planning for occupancies and things like that in their settings. So I think people are using it for the admin side of things rather than learning learning side of things. So I think that's where a lot of people are using it and finding it helps them with their day to day.

Mark Taylor 00:04:36

And I think that kind of makes sense because as I sort of think through the idea of lesson planning and you can understand how that and getting resources for children sort of further down their educational journey. As soon as you think AI in early years, you're thinking, well, how does that fit within play, within, you know, that sort of classroom environment? And it makes more sense that it's kind of helping you in the back end, so to speak.

Ben Case 00:05:00

Yeah, I mean, so, I mean from the survey results it was 80 reported it saved them time. But I was part of a panel discussion recently where we talked about how AI tools can be used with the children. And one of the things I, I'd forgotten I did this with my son actually it was creating a story. So using an AI tool, basically you tell it what your characters are, what the story you want them to have, you know, anyone else, all the details of it and it creates a story. Now for early years especially, I mean for all children, it's useful. But for early years especially, putting that into a context of a story can help them process things they're going through. So I used it for my son when we were. So my wife's expecting another baby and we're kind of trying to sort of help support him process it. And so we just wrote this little story and I included all the stories about the trains that he loves and everything like that. And it just went through everything and took the whole journey of like us telling him or the characters at least called the same thing as him and then all the way to bringing home the little baby brother, you know, and it was just like you could almost see him understanding it. So I think people are starting to use it for that kind of thing as well. So in that lesson planning as well, finding activities, but there's also a lot of things which you can do to support sort of the children.

Mark Taylor 00:06:27

I love that in so many ways. I think first of all it comes across in a way like you say that they're used to saying and used to seeing, you know, whether it's something that you might see on the telly or sort of a child related program, as it were. I love the fact that you can then have that interaction because like I say, you can sort of create it, get together, you're experiencing it together. And when it's got that real life experience and example of what's going on, let's say the relatability. And I think taking that into education generally is such a fantastic idea. And one of the things we're talking a lot about currently is the, is sort of the child at the center of everything that you do. You know, you've got these stakeholders, if not for a better word. You know, whether it's the, your teacher, whether it's your school, whether it's your football coach, whether it's the people that are supporting you run your, your sort of educational journey. So many of these people are all such an integr part of that. And I think the other thing that really strikes me is the fact that AI is going to be something. For example, your unborn child is going to know nothing except that's how the world works. And this is what you do all the time. So you know, to, to make it part of what we're doing now. It kind of has to be the way one feels.

Ben Case 00:07:31

And I think as well as educators, we kind of need to prepare the children for this. So one of the things I do a lot of with my son, so he's three and a half, so very Young and still processing everything. But I, I edit a lot of photos to show him using AI tools, so I might add. The other day he, I had a brilliant photo of him running and I edited it, put a dinosaur chasing him and I showed it to him and we talked about it and he found it hilarious. But then I was like, do you think this is real? Was the dinosaur there? And he was like, no, no. And so it's just getting him prepared for actually the world that they're going to be growing up in. A lot of the media that we sort of always accepted, oh yeah, this is, you know, this is a photo, it's pretty much accurate. You know, obviously a bit of Photoshop in here and there. But what we're seeing now, videos as well could be completely AI generated. It's getting so powerful and so realistic that actually we need to teach them to question what they're seeing at every point. And that's, you know, for all age children.

Mark Taylor 00:08:37

I think, I think that's really true and I think one of the benefits, I think of what you just said there is the fact that if he knew at that age that of course that's not real and that becomes their norm. They don't necessarily expect it to be real because they haven't like, say our generation much more that kind of. If it's a photograph then that must have happened, they must have been there, that conversation must have happened, whereas they're not like that. And I think back to my, I mean my daughter's older, she's just gone to university, but from a social media point of view, a lot of what goes on in the media and the news is the fact that it can be really harmful and it's, it's not necessarily a supportive thing for children, of course of which is true in many ways and, and there are obviously a lot of problems with that. But from what I was hearing from her and her friends was much more how supportive it is, you know, within a good community, you know, a group of people who were supporting themselves through, through A levels and exams and the stresses of, of sort of further on down the school. And they kind of took, look, there is all this st on, on social media, we're aware of that. We keep well away from that. We use it in a way that's supportive for us. I'm not just coming home and being on my own. My social life and my world sort of gets integrated in the way they sort of communicated and organized their lives and meeting up and sort of person in person, sort of events were still incredibly important to them. But I think it's really important to sort of see both sides of those coins, isn't it? And like say. And give them the skills that, and the understanding and the credit that they. Actually, some of them are very savvy and they do know. And our job is to guide and like you said, all the information and show them what's possible and then help and support from there.

Ben Case 00:10:11

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's where engaging parents in this whole journey as well is important. You know, it's. So going back to the Tapestry, survey settings were saying it's. They're finding it harder and harder to engage parents in sort of their child's learning. And there's, there's a difference to. I, I feel personally there's a difference to a, A parent is engaged in school life and a parent that is engaged in their child's development. And I think that's where sometimes we get a little bit of confusion in that sometimes you might have a parent who is part of the pta, comes to all the events and everything, but don't always necessarily understand what's going on with their child's development and how to support them. And then you might have parents who don't engage with the school at all, but are at home working with their child. And I think it's, it's about working with parents to support them that way and teaching them about these AI tools as well. You know, most of the parents will be of our kind of generation that are experiencing it, trying to process it as well and maybe getting left behind a little bit.

Mark Taylor 00:11:26

And, and for. I do really encourage people to go back and listen to those sort of couple of earlier episodes. But for those people who haven't sort of used Tapestry before or whatever, just take us a little bit into some of the sort of the, the, the, the tech and the ways that you're able to help that engagement and, and support people sort of across the board there.

Ben Case 00:11:44

Yeah, I mean, I, so I started using Tufts when it first began in 2012, when I was a early years teacher. And I, I used it to gather evidence, if you want, because early years at the time was very much a. We need to have evidence for the learning that's going on. But I also saw it as a valuable tool for communicating with parents. And that's basically why Helen and Steve, who set it all up, they, that's, that was their purpose, was to communicate with their families, share what the learning was going on at Helen's nursery and and basically see we get that information back as well from parents. So get parents to add things. There's over the years, I mean since I've joined the features that have been developed have just grown and grown and grown. There's a lot of features such as activities. So I did an MPQSL in parental engagement. Basically that was my focus because we realized that children, the families weren't that engaged in our school. So my project was about that and I started to look at using Tapestry for that, using activities. So giving parents ideas of things to do with their child, not home learning things. So not do these spellings or do this. It was some, I mean thinking for early years. Record your child counting numbers as you're walking to school or you know, talk to your child about what sounds they can hear when you're walking. And I, I kind of see it as a Tapestry parent as well now myself. So my little boys sat in, they use Tapestry. I still feel what do they want me to put on? You know, what's interesting to them and are they really going to care if I put this on and everything like that. And so it's, I think we need to support parents to know the value in what they do at home and how they share that with us and as educators how we use that information. It's easy to sort of focus, right. I'm teaching this, this and this, you know, yes, it's nice they've sent me this, but I can't do anything with it actually if the child is truly at the center of what we're doing, what they're doing at home is so important and can sort of shape what you're doing in school with them as well. And that's where Tapestry I think can help because you get that information back from home. It's that two way communication as well. You know, everyone's busy. It's not always possible to grab every parent and say, oh, this is how we got on today. But if you can put it onto something like Tapestry, it's fantastic.

Mark Taylor 00:14:16

Yeah, it just kind of keeps that conversation going. And I think like you say, everyone's lives are slightly different. And so however that touch point works and however that can be supportive and I know certainly from my sort of parental experience to be able to say, oh, I understand that this might have happened or how did you get on with this particular thing? Has a very different conversation than how was school? What did you do? And those complete. But oh, did I go to school today? I can't remember, you know. Yeah.

Ben Case 00:14:46

No, definitely And I, you know, and I, if, if I believe my little boy, I. All we would do every day, all he does every day is play on the train tracks or he plays on his own. And yet I get things from Tapestry that they've added which shows him doing a whole range of activities, playing with lots of things, playing with lots of different children. So I'm getting that back. As a parent, that's are really powerful for me.

Mark Taylor 00:15:11

Yeah. Like say. Because you could then think, yes, there is something going on here, which of course, you know, there is. It's a, it's an educational institution. It's. They're meant to be doing something like say you've got an insight into what that is. And, and I think also like you say, if you've got engagement with the school in, in that sort of interactive way, even if you think then forward into a parents evening or something to be able to sort of have something which you can ask specifically about based on what you know, they've done rather than maybe just have a look at a book or whatever. It's got to be, it's got to be a positive thing.

Ben Case 00:15:40

Yeah. And I think I probably mentioned, I may have mentioned this before is that I remember one of the best things I ever used to use Tapestry for was junk modeling because I, you know, my daughter's older as well and I know she used to come home with stuff and be like, what, what is this? You know, and not having. I did, I wasn't engaged in that at that time. So what I used to do as a teacher was if they were making something, they tell me about it. I'd take a photo, write down what it was and share it with the parents before the end of the day. Then when the child takes that model out, the parent can say, oh, wow, I love your model boat. Or whatever they've made. Straight away, that child is. Now I want to tell you about my boat because you've shown an interest in it. And again, it's just that those little snippets, the things that you can share with parents and they can then use to support their child as well. It just helps, you know, and that child's language is developing because of those conversations and everything like that. And I think that's where the power, that's where the power of these kind of tools comes from. Yeah.

Mark Taylor 00:16:40

And I think, I think that's sort of the perfect way of being able to describe it, isn't it? Is that because we're talking about your relationship with the school, you're talking about your relationship with your child and what the tool is doing is giving you a great way in a great starting point, a great way to get that communication to be very organic and seamless. And then I think the way that you interact with it all comes from that sort of personal human connection which is what it's all about. And then I think how you think about these things, how you access them, how you sort of emotionally go to a tool becomes a very different sort of starting point. And then like I say, you can, you can get as far into the, the weeds with them as you want from that.

Ben Case 00:17:20

Yeah. And I also think as well, like with the older children. So in Tapestry we've got a thing called Child login where the children can log into their own account and access those activities you set. So what you could do is set an activity for that lesson and they access it, they can see what you need to do. They, you might have recorded a video of yourself doing the input. So they're, they're kind of getting everything you need. They then complete the activity and fill it out on Tapestry as an observation. You're then at the end of that lesson you can see what they did independently. And on top of that there's a group of five or six children who have, you've not had to worry about in that lesson. So you know, any teacher who's had only 25 instead of 30 in a class knows losing five children in that lesson makes a massive difference, you know, and if, if you can do that, that's fantastic. It's not that they're not doing anything, it's just you've given them everything they need to get on, on their own and you can really see whether they've understood it as well.

Mark Taylor 00:18:19

Yeah, yeah. Amazing. And you sort of mentioned there about this. Obviously play is very central to what goes on and I know you've, you've created a video that helps support that from, from a home standpoint as well. So yeah, take us into first of all, why you to create and sort of what, what's involved in it for people.

Ben Case 00:18:37

So yes, I mean it's called Let Play the Day. Let Play Lead the Day. Sorry. And it, it was actually an award winning play worker, Amber, who contacted us wanting to collaborate about this animation. And it's about promoting play because I think play is something that can easily be lost in education. I think when we're trying to focus on what needs to be taught and everything like that. And you think, right, how am I going to get to learn it's easy to fall into that. Let's use a scheme or let's do it this way, you know, everyone doing it together. And one thing I've noticed recently by looking around schools, as a parent look, trying to choose one, is that actually there are some schools that do this through play for a lot longer than just reception and talking to the children at these schools, they are so engaged in their learning because of this. And it's not that they're just playing and not learning anything. They are solving problems. And to me, that is one of the skills that if you focus on just teaching them a topic, they might not have the skills to problem solve. And that's what we need to cope in the world, I think.

Mark Taylor 00:19:58

Absolutely, yes.

Ben Case 00:20:00

I mean the, the video though was part of a project to promote this play if you want and make sure that people understand the value of this play. And Amber's doing an amazing job of promoting this and everything. And it was just an honor for Tapestry to be involved in that and help launch it and everything.

Mark Taylor 00:20:19

Yeah, that's brilliant. And like I said, I mean from sort of having watched it, it's that sense of it's everything you'd want and expect it to be in a way that's so easily digestible and so and comes across in such a sort of a positive manner. And I just, I just want to ask you about when you sort of went into those schools. As you sort of mentioned about the play options and you sort of, you heard that for the children and obviously with your kind of educational hat and your expertise of that, would you be able to sort of describe what it was about those schools that you thought enabled them to go down that route, but still fulfill all the criteria that schools have to do these days? Because it must be a purpose, purposeful way of doing it, but with a positive outcome.

Ben Case 00:21:01

Yeah. So I mean, the school has to embrace it. It has to be something that the whole. The school accepts that this is the way we're going to do it. And it's. Things might not be done in a. The typical way. And I think allowing the children. So for example, it was if the children were exploring what happens when you add two numbers together. The, the resources that were available were very open ended. The teacher said, I want you to find out what you can about adding two numbers together. Or maybe it was a two digit and a one digit number, something like that. I can't remember exactly what it was saw, but. And then. So this was year two or year one or two. I can't remember which one. But basically the children then just grabbed their resources that they wanted to use. So they were, they were taking ownership of that. There wasn't. Right. You are using this, you know, these little pegs, plastic pegs, which mean nothing to you. They were going to get resources that they wanted to, and they, they framed it in a way that made sense to them and, and kind of just approached it that way. And what they were able to talk about and then use in later discussions with the teacher, I think is really important. And it's the same with writing. You know, some children don't really have that excitement to write because they don't see the point of it. But if all of a sudden you've taught them a skill and then you say, now go and explore further about it and write about it, if they're enthusiastic about it, that's fantastic. And I think that's the key. It's giving them ownership. It reminds me of a video as we saw as a. When we were teaching about the butterfly. I can't remember exactly what it was, but the, the child was asked to do a butterfly and every child had to do the same. Well, I'm sure it was this one where every child had to do the same thing. And it was like, I, you know, I didn't want to do my butterfly like that. In fact, I didn't even want to do a butterfly. And I kind of use that in my own teaching. It was like, teach them the skill, but let them put that into place how they want it to be. Rather than you are all going to do a flower or you're all going to do a butterfly. Yeah, I love it.

Mark Taylor 00:23:20

And it just sort of took me all the way back to what you said about your, the photo in the dinosaur that you spoke about earlier on. Because like I said, if you started with a picture, you know, if that's something that, that your child's thinking, oh, they love a dinosaur, we can have that conversation about that. But another child, it might be a car, it might be that we were at a beach or whatever it happened to be. But like I say, you've got that engagement because you've got that personalized learning of knowing what that conversation or that next bit of interest is going to be.

Ben Case 00:23:49

Yeah, definitely. And yeah, that's where AI tools can really help. Because actually, as you say, you could say to a child, right, take this image and now place it where you want to so that you can write about it. So it might be you've got a character you want them to write about and. But you're focusing on the surroundings now. They could then put that character into an AI photo or create an AI photo and then use that as their inspiration for their writing. Whereas if you gave them a photo of that character in a setting, they might not be inspired by that setting. So, you know, if it's a scarecrow that's just sat in a cornfield, if they've never seen a cornfield, they, they're not going to be able to experience it. But if that's, as you say, if they live near a beach and they put their scarecrow on the beach and, you know, it's that they wanted to do that to try and scare away the seagulls, you know, it's. It's probably things that they can relate to. Yeah. And you're going to get better writing because of it.

Mark Taylor 00:24:49

Yeah, yeah. It all makes so much sense, doesn't it? But then you can also see how restrictive it is for some, some people in. Some sit. Because like you say, we do it this way, we do it that way, it makes it much harder. Yeah.

Ben Case 00:25:01

And, and that is the, that is the problem. I think it's. It takes, it takes almost guts to say, right, we are going to do this as a school, very strong leadership, because you're going to be up against it all the time. People are going to be saying, oh, no, you shouldn't be doing that. And actually, if you're a strong leader and you're able to sort of say, right, no, I'm going to say, this is what we're doing, let's go for it. And you've taken, you share your vision with everyone and everyone goes along with it, then it should succeed. But it takes, you know, you can't just run away as soon as you're challenged about it. I think you've got to be. You've got to be firm on, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it. And so one of the schools, I saw it happening. The reason they're doing it is because they realize their children after the, you know, these were Covid toddlers, if you want, they weren't ready at the end of year one to go into formal learning. So they extended it. And at the end of year one, they were like, well, we're still not quite there. So they took it into year two by the time they started year three. Now this is their second year of doing it. The year three teacher said they are ready for formal learning. And that to me was they responded to the needs of their children and that was their driving force.

Mark Taylor 00:26:15

Yeah.

Ben Case 00:26:16

And it's. I think that's the key. It's the schools that do it are responding to the needs of their children. So it might not be something that all schools need to do. You know, if you're. You've not got that issue, then why change it?

Mark Taylor 00:26:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Ben Case 00:26:29

You know, if you've noticed that the children in your school need this, actually look at options and make. And make that jump and see what happens.

Mark Taylor 00:26:38

Exactly. And we're not going to go down this rabbit hole. But that just perfectly explains one size doesn't fit all. One criteria doesn't fit all. And like I say, the brave. The brave leadership and the br. People who like, say child at the heart of what we're doing. The rest of it will take care of itself. And. Yes. Anyway, yeah, I'm just going to reverse myself out.

Ben Case 00:27:01

So I'm.

Mark Taylor 00:27:02

I'm curious, you know, obviously we're talking a lot about AI today. How have you found it? You sort of talked about it sort of from a personal standpoint, but within Tapestry, within the way it's developing, working. What sort of experience have you got of it from that sort of professional side?

Ben Case 00:27:18

So, I mean, in my personal role, I use it a lot to support myself, give me ideas sort of to support writing things, give me ideas of where I can get. I mean, I use Notebook LM a lot to put all my sources in and then it gives me things that I can use to inspire me as a platform. We've talked about how Tapestry could introduce things like AI tools, but we don't want to just go down the route of generative. I can never say that word, but where it writes it for you, generative, that's it. Where it just. Where you sort of say, this is what I want, and it writes it. Because the art of writing an observation is part of being an early years sort of practitioner. It's about. It goes back to knowing that child and everything you can. There are lots of tools which you can use to improve the grammar and check the spellings and things like that. So that area, I think that's very. I think that's very useful and I think that's something that we may look at in the future. But what I would hope that we don't go down is that one where you basically say, right, this is what the errors are. And it goes. And it looks at the photo or video and it says, this is the observation and it writes it for you. Because that takes the skill away from that practitioner. And it then means you don't really know that child as much because writing down about it is where you're learning about that child. So for me, I think that's kind of where we need to have walk. That fine balance of it's there as an admin tool to support you with what you're doing. But I don't want it to replace what you do as a practitioner and that the skills that you have as a practitioner. So support this practitioner but not replace them.

Mark Taylor 00:29:09

Yeah, I think that's really true. And I think the other thing that I'm beginning to hear more and more is the fact that people want the human interaction as well, you know, so if we take today's podcast as an example, you know, we don't live just down the road from each other, so we can't just meet up and do it in person. But the positive effect of having the technology is the fact we can do it in this way, which I absolutely love. But I think it's always going to be one step removed from us meeting in a coffee shop and just chatting these things over in person. Because there are certain things that you get from that in person thing as well. And from an educational point of view, exactly that same thing. The human connection, the human contact, the things that you learn just by being in the same space from an adult and a child or an early years setting is something that you can't recreate. And understanding that the tools are there to help you in a way that gives you more time is probably the biggest thing at the moment as well, which you can then utilize in order to be more of you in that situation is such a positive one.

Ben Case 00:30:10

Yeah. And so, I mean, I've been fortunate enough to do some work with Richard Waite, who's an EYFS STEAM expert, and he talks about using AI but also having human intelligence alongside it. And I think that is a really important aspect of it. Yes, use it, but still be the human part of it. You know, don't think it's just going to replace you, because actually you are still the most important part of what you're doing. And it can help you, but it shouldn't replace everything you do.

Mark Taylor 00:30:46

Yeah. And I think just. Just to sort of, sort of finish that circle part. One of the other things that strikes me is the fact that AI very often is just scouring whatever information from wherever it get to create something in a way which maybe I can't do as well personally, but it's Only still scouring it from other things. And the great thing that we have from a human point of view is it's the thing that I haven't thought of yet. It's the thing. It's the conversations I haven't had or the person I haven't met, which AI can't do. And who knows how it works in the future. But I think currently that's where we have the upper hand in terms of where you want to spend your time, because that's the exciting connection that.

Ben Case 00:31:24

Yeah. And that. That's probably where I find Notebook LM as a tool is really useful because I can put the sources that I have into the, the system and then I can ask it, you know, have you got enough information about this? Or what do I need more to find out about this? And it will guide me to where my gaps in my knowledge are and stuff like that. So as a study tool as well, and, you know, for children going through like their GCSes or something like that, to have this kind of tool where you can put in what you know and what those sources are, and then it, it gives you what, it shows you your gaps, it points you in the right direction, it helps you learn. I think that's. If more of the tools can come like that, then we're in a really good direction.

Mark Taylor 00:32:10

Yeah, absolutely. Now, obviously, the acronym FIRE is important to us here, and by that we also mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment. What is it that strikes you, whether it's one of those words or a combination?

Ben Case 00:32:25

So I mean, inspiration wise. I think that is something for me that is really important because, you know, as educators, we have a lot of experience, whether it's in the classroom or outside the classroom, which we can then inspire the children, but we can also inspire other educators. And I think we need to keep hold of that experience to pass on to everyone else, but also acknowledge that inspiration can come up as well. So just because you're a new teacher doesn't mean that you can't inspire the teachers have been doing it for 30 years because actually you're bringing skills. So, you know, especially over the next few years, we're coming, we're going to be getting new teachers who have grown up with the. Or come into it with AI as their. The way they've learned, and they've also learned about other things that maybe teachers who've been in it 30 years didn't have. So the experience of being in the classroom can come from the ones who've been in it for a Long time. But the experience of how you could do things and that inspiration can come from new teachers as well. And I think for me that is how we're going to really work well as a team in schools and settings and everything in education as a whole is inspire each other. And don't think I've been doing it a long time. This is. Right, this is how it's always going to be. You know, the modern child is changing, so we're going to need to change, or maybe not the modern child is changing, but the world they've grown up in is changing. So we need to maybe adapt how we do things and that inspiration can come from everyone. So, yeah, that's my thing.

Mark Taylor 00:34:09

Yeah, I really love that. And I think you put it so brilliantly there because of course that sort of peer to peer learning, even if it's a generational gap almost in terms of age and also, you know, with like say children knowing much more from a technical point of view, being able to do it. And I think everyone learning from everyone gives you that sense of it's not another Tuesday night sort of CPD session where I need to learn about this. It's like it's a conversation, it's can we do this? How do I do that? How did you do that in your lesson? Or whatever it happens to be. And that continual learning kind of is really there, much the same as my kids going, do you really still do that when you're doing it on your phone or whatever it is. I was like, I'm a fairly technological, kind of up to date with stuff, you know, but even just that thought of what you press that button in that way or you think of it like that, it's just, it's just hilarious.

Ben Case 00:34:55

It always reminds me of. So we had a relative who was a teacher and I was actually in her class when I was. I think it must have been in probably about year one, so many, many years ago. And I remember her saying to me, we had old BBC computers and I had one at home and she was like, oh, I can't do it. And she used to call on me to come and help her and it was just like it didn't matter that I was just the year one child, I was there to support her and that, you know, that to me was really important, like really good.

Mark Taylor 00:35:25

Yeah, exactly. It's exactly that. In the, in the modern age. In the modern age. And it's there. But, but I think that just to sort of make this sort of full circle is the fact that the human to human connection in terms of what you were doing. That might have. How it worked from a technical point then and it might be different now, but what we need and how we. And how we sort of interact in that way is the same thing. And I think being able to remember those stories is. Probably gives you that sense of, yeah, I understand what this is about. Even if I don't know what notebook elements or whatever, that happens to me. Yeah, fantastic. Oh, brilliant, Ben, thanks so much. It's always great to chat to you and to sort of keep up to date with, with what Tapestry are doing. Just remind people where people can go to obviously find out more about them.

Ben Case 00:36:06

Yes. I mean, yeah. So you mean you can find more information about tapestry@tapestry.info and yeah, we've got lots of information on that site about how we can be used in nurseries, but also throughout the whole of primary. So I'm working with a lot of primary schools now who are using it all the way through to year six and communicating with parents all the way through to Year six, which I think is a fantastic way to use it. But, yeah, so do visit tapestry.info we can do a free trial for people. And. And the thing that people are always surprised about is the price. You know, if you've got a class of 30, you could have a package which is only £148 for the year, you know, and when you think of how much other packages can cost, I think that's, you know, good value.

Mark Taylor 00:36:52

The value. Brilliant stuff. Well, keep up the great work. I can't wait till we chat again.

Ben Case 00:36:57

Yeah.

Mark Taylor 00:36:57

And as I mentioned just before we recorded, we've got some early Years focus coming up with a. With the season that we're going to be doing later in the year. So I'm sure we'll be chatting again soon. Soon. So.

Ben Case 00:37:04

Yeah, lovely. All right, thanks so much.

Mark Taylor 00:37:08

Education is not the filling of a pail but the lighting of a fire.