From Passion to Profession: Martyn Cast and the Jenca Music School

Speaker A 00:00:00

Music is one of the most empowering of all the arts.

Speaker A 00:00:04

I mean, what it gives to people and seeing people come out of their shell, it wasn't about learning grades or studying pieces.

Speaker A 00:00:16

I just wanted to play like the people I listened to, you know, like the people I grew up listening to, and it loved their music.

Speaker A 00:00:26

Half of me can read and play.

Speaker A 00:00:29

The other half of me, I use my improvisational skills, which doesn't require me to read.

Speaker A 00:00:34

I just feel the music.

Speaker A 00:00:37

I have a song called Jeff the Dancing Shark, which is basically a song that a little boy I was teaching said, can we write a song about a show?

Speaker A 00:00:47

And I was aware that, oh, yeah, okay, you got baby shark and all of these things like that.

Speaker A 00:00:51

But he said, I want to call it Jeff.

Speaker A 00:00:54

Inspiration is what I, I provide for children as I teach them.

Speaker A 00:00:58

All my knowledge and all my years of doing it and how I got connected with music in the first place is very much through inspiration.

Speaker A 00:01:09

Resilience.

Speaker A 00:01:10

Keep trying, keep pushing.

Speaker A 00:01:12

Try to be the best you can.

Speaker A 00:01:13

Even when you feel like it's not going as you expect, you've got to keep trying.

Speaker A 00:01:19

Without doubt, without music, I wouldn't have what I have now.

Speaker B 00:01:24

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor, and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, the place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Speaker B 00:01:38

Listen to teachers, parents, and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Speaker B 00:01:47

Hi, Martin, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast.

Speaker B 00:01:50

As a musician myself, it's always fantastic to speak to someone who has the same passion, and I know the importance of music around education generally as well.

Speaker B 00:01:58

So, yeah, thanks so much.

Speaker B 00:01:59

I'm really looking forward to hearing your stories about music in general.

Speaker A 00:02:03

Thanks.

Speaker A 00:02:03

Nice to meet you, Mark.

Speaker A 00:02:04

I'm looking forward to relating it to you as well, and hopefully we can get some good feedback either way.

Speaker B 00:02:11

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 00:02:11

So let's start off with the fact that you're in Jersey, because that's a very exciting thing for me.

Speaker B 00:02:16

I've done a few concerts in Jersey many years, years ago now, but it's a fantastic island and I would imagine sort of how your business works, how your musical life works, is slightly different than maybe it was if you'd sort of stayed in the sort of the uk Mainland.

Speaker A 00:02:30

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, my musical journey started well, probably, like so many people, through loving music as a child, growing up in an environment as music, my parents, my, my siblings all shed a joy and passion for Music.

Speaker A 00:02:52

But I was the only one in my family that took up an instrument in my.

Speaker A 00:02:56

I'd say I was about 12, just preteen.

Speaker A 00:02:59

I took up the guitar living in the UK at the time.

Speaker A 00:03:03

And I developed my interest from that point.

Speaker A 00:03:06

And because I lived in, in England at that particular time in the mid to late 70s, I was surrounded by so much great music and I was very privileged to be able to attend a lot of concerts when I was going into my mid to late teens living in and around London.

Speaker A 00:03:26

And so that kind of inspired me, if you like, to keep going on my own particular journey.

Speaker A 00:03:34

I.

Speaker A 00:03:34

I got into playing in bands when I was about 17, 18.

Speaker A 00:03:39

I also went to a music school in London when I was in my early 20s and I did.

Speaker A 00:03:45

I think it preceded BIM, if you know who BIM are, which is like the British and Irish modern music.

Speaker B 00:03:55

Right, right.

Speaker A 00:03:56

So BIM were like a precursor for that.

Speaker A 00:03:59

And I went and did a, a year course there in guitar.

Speaker A 00:04:07

Came back from that.

Speaker A 00:04:08

But this is kind of about the time I.

Speaker A 00:04:10

I eventually moved base and started to live in Jersey.

Speaker A 00:04:14

I came to Jersey primarily just for a holiday.

Speaker A 00:04:18

Ended up falling into a scene here.

Speaker A 00:04:20

I got a job here and ultimately got into the music scene here.

Speaker A 00:04:25

Got into a couple of local bands and then I got into playing with some like duo work.

Speaker A 00:04:31

And it was from that really that was like how I eventually got into teaching was purely by chance because I had some.

Speaker A 00:04:42

A guy come up to me after a gig with his son and said, do you teach guitar?

Speaker A 00:04:47

Because my son would really like to learn how to play the guitar like you do.

Speaker A 00:04:51

And at that point I thought, well, I've never tried.

Speaker A 00:04:54

And I said I can try to give him support.

Speaker A 00:04:56

And that's kind of how the whole thing started.

Speaker A 00:05:00

That was 25.

Speaker A 00:05:02

25?

Speaker A 00:05:04

Yeah, 25, 26 years ago now.

Speaker A 00:05:06

So that's when I started teaching.

Speaker A 00:05:10

And gradually, over the course of, I suppose of about five, six years, I eventually started teaching from a base in town over here in Jersey and built up like a clientele from there.

Speaker A 00:05:26

Ultimately where I am now is that I have my own school.

Speaker A 00:05:32

I teach in private schools as well.

Speaker A 00:05:34

But the school, I operate in Jersey itself.

Speaker A 00:05:37

I have a pool of teachers that work for me.

Speaker A 00:05:39

So I have like drums, I have three drummers, I have four other guitar teachers.

Speaker A 00:05:45

I've got a bass tutor, a vocal tutor and a piano tutor.

Speaker A 00:05:50

So all very high end quality teachers as well.

Speaker A 00:05:55

All live performers.

Speaker A 00:05:56

So as I say, that's kind of where it started to.

Speaker A 00:05:59

Where it is now and it's.

Speaker A 00:06:03

We're also.

Speaker A 00:06:04

My school is affiliated with Rock School, who are like the main examination body in the uk.

Speaker A 00:06:13

I think they're, well, pretty much worldwide now.

Speaker A 00:06:16

And we've been associated with them again for about 25 years.

Speaker A 00:06:20

So we're now regarded as a center of excellence for our school.

Speaker A 00:06:23

My.

Speaker A 00:06:24

Sorry, my school, I should tell you, my school is called Jenka Music School.

Speaker A 00:06:29

It's an unusual name.

Speaker A 00:06:31

It's like an.

Speaker A 00:06:31

An acronym of my daughter's name.

Speaker A 00:06:33

I took the initials from her name and amalgamated it into Jenka because a lot of people ask, how do you get the name?

Speaker A 00:06:42

So that's fundamentally what we came up with.

Speaker A 00:06:45

And as I say, we.

Speaker A 00:06:46

We've been working with rock School for 25 years now.

Speaker A 00:06:51

So we do exams in our school three times a year, every year in all disciplines.

Speaker A 00:06:58

I think we've got some coming up the end of June now.

Speaker A 00:07:01

We've got three days of exams which is going to be like about, I'd say, in excess of 60 people doing exams.

Speaker A 00:07:08

So it's a really, really big concern for us.

Speaker A 00:07:11

It's obviously a successful part of what we do.

Speaker A 00:07:14

And it's something that we highly encourage for all our students to endeavor to be the best they can, taking up the instrument and going as far as they can with it to the point where they.

Speaker A 00:07:28

They're obviously accomplished at it, but also they have a passion and a love for learning to play and hopefully get to the point where they can either perform themselves or become teachers themselves in the future.

Speaker B 00:07:41

And I think for me, the most important thing there that sort of threads through all of that is the idea of just the learning and the experience and the opportunity, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:07:50

Because, like you say, I was the same.

Speaker B 00:07:52

It was that opportunity when I was at school, I had to learn an instrument and drums was the thing I sort of decided was I thought was going to be the best idea for me.

Speaker B 00:07:59

But then teachers who are passionate, being surrounded by ensembles within my school and outside of school and, you know, the music scene, sort of like saying that sort of air was just amazing.

Speaker B 00:08:09

I think understanding what that is, the opportunity to listen, the opportunity to experience, to watch things live, to then be part of things.

Speaker B 00:08:16

And like I say, that natural progression, hopefully then into being being in a band or a duo or an orchestra, depending on what your sort of instrumentation is, makes such a big thing.

Speaker B 00:08:24

And I love the fact that sort of now, like, say all these years later, it's exactly the same passion that comes across.

Speaker B 00:08:29

You know, you have somewhere that People can go, they can learn, they can embrace music as they want to do it and then sort of have that structure and understanding of how they can be supported.

Speaker B 00:08:39

And I think that's the thing which is a shame in a lot of the arts and a lot of places certainly around the UK now that that sort of diminishing a little bit.

Speaker B 00:08:47

So it's always fantastic to be able to hear and sort of share these stories with things which are positive.

Speaker A 00:08:52

Well, I mean I, I don't need to tell you that music is one of the most empowering of all the arts.

Speaker A 00:08:59

I mean what it gives creativity create creatively to people and seeing people come out of their shell.

Speaker A 00:09:09

You know, in many cases we, we have people that are either shy or introverted or have learning difficulties.

Speaker A 00:09:16

We have quite a lot of adhesive, is it ADHD kids that you know, they have and that they find that they have, they need some kind of outlet for their frustration and music is a, is such a big part of their, becomes such a big part of their lives and as long as the teachers are aware of that and they can enhance it, bring it out, then you feel like you're accomplishing amazing things with young children and adults.

Speaker A 00:09:43

Of course it's not just confined to children.

Speaker A 00:09:47

We get adults that have maybe anxiety or they have things in their life that they can't cope with and they, they use music as a conduit, if you like, as an outlet for that frustration in life.

Speaker A 00:10:00

And I, I think it's criminal to even consider that they could cut back on the music education for young people in the.

Speaker A 00:10:08

You.

Speaker A 00:10:08

I think it's quite a big thing in the UK that the, the, the government.

Speaker A 00:10:13

I'm not quite sure how that works but.

Speaker B 00:10:16

Well, I think, I think, you know, in general sweeping terms when I started my lessons and I think I was about the same age as you, I'd just gone to secondary school.

Speaker B 00:10:25

Our music lessons had to be a win band so that, so that everyone had to learn an instrument for that first year.

Speaker A 00:10:30

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:10:31

And then the opportunity sort of went from there.

Speaker B 00:10:33

But my first year of music lessons were absolutely free.

Speaker B 00:10:36

You know, they were subsidized by the school because they were passionate about giving everyone that opportunity.

Speaker B 00:10:41

I think we had to pay from the second year, but it was very, very highly subsidized and I then the opportunities I had to play around school were all subsidized.

Speaker B 00:10:51

There was sort of minimal cost and you know, that sort of minimum barrier to entry as it were, or opportunity is so key because I certainly know now, in sort of my music experience as a teacher is the fact that if you can afford it, then great, but it's such a big thing for parents to, to do, to sort of find a teacher to be able to afford it, to then support over the long term, because, you know, there is that kind of.

Speaker B 00:11:16

You want the experience to give children a go.

Speaker B 00:11:18

Because if you don't have a go at anything, you, you don't know how it's going to be.

Speaker B 00:11:21

But I think you'll probably agree with me.

Speaker B 00:11:23

There's the process of learning and the understanding and the practice and the ebb and flow of, of how that works and the, the relationship that you build with the teacher.

Speaker B 00:11:32

Like you say, no matter what your learning circumstances are, that builds over time.

Speaker B 00:11:36

And that I think has a financial cost.

Speaker B 00:11:39

If it's going to be a really expensive thing, where some parents are going to be like, oh, we've given it a go for a.

Speaker B 00:11:44

Two or three lessons.

Speaker B 00:11:45

You don't seem to already be performing concerts, therefore we're going to let you do something else.

Speaker B 00:11:49

So it's a, it's a really sort of key thing.

Speaker B 00:11:52

And I think with that funding or that kind of investment not being given so that as many people have the opportunity to do it as possible is the thing which I think is the thing that sort of maybe stifling the arts and there's a bigger conversation there about how these things sort of move forward.

Speaker B 00:12:06

But yeah, such an important part of it.

Speaker A 00:12:09

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A 00:12:11

Clearly that, that when, when you start out on any instrument, it, it doesn't always.

Speaker A 00:12:16

I mean, occasionally you'll find someone who's very.

Speaker A 00:12:19

Just got a natural ability.

Speaker A 00:12:22

But for, by and large, most people have to work for it.

Speaker A 00:12:27

So the parents are weighing up the cost of the lessons over the time, the duration of this process.

Speaker A 00:12:34

So it is.

Speaker A 00:12:36

People say, how long will it take my son or daughter to learn to play, say, the piano to a, a reasonable standard?

Speaker A 00:12:43

Well, of course it's all fundamentally, it's down to a lot of practice and a lot of belief in wanting to learn and, and the teacher's there to guide you and bring out the best of you.

Speaker A 00:12:56

But it does take time and we are aware that it's not some, sometimes it can't.

Speaker A 00:13:02

It's not always affordable for parents with young families.

Speaker A 00:13:07

So we, we don't get subsidized by the government for our business.

Speaker A 00:13:12

Our business is just run.

Speaker A 00:13:14

Is a private business, but we have overheads because we, we rent a space so we have to charge according, but we compromise we work out deals where we can offset the cost of a lesson to, you know, give them a little bit more extra time or, you know, give them a reduced rate because of their circuit.

Speaker A 00:13:35

There's always compromise because I.

Speaker A 00:13:38

Especially when you.

Speaker A 00:13:40

A student that comes to you and you can see they've got great potential and the worst thing you can do is knock that back because they might not get another chance to do that in their life.

Speaker A 00:13:52

So you encourage it and say you find a way so that is affordable for the parents.

Speaker A 00:13:59

And then of course, once you start getting results, the parents are less concerned about the cost, but they're aware that their child is actually getting reaping the benefits of having private tuition.

Speaker B 00:14:13

Yeah, I completely agree.

Speaker B 00:14:15

And I think the other thing to point out here for people listening, especially if they're sort of about to enter into this world, is the fact that the grades and the exams and those sorts of things are obviously a really good way to sort of see that progression and be able to sort of understand how that's working.

Speaker B 00:14:30

But you should never underestimate what everyone is learning within that as well.

Speaker B 00:14:36

So whether they ever take the exam or don't do the exam, the skill set that you're learning, like you say, the creativity, the way of understanding how your brain works and some of the skills that you're learning around just that particular instrument as well, has so many positive effects in other subjects, in their personality, how they interact, their social life, being part of things.

Speaker B 00:14:56

And so sometimes that's harder to quantify until you have that sort of look of hindsight because you can say, God, this person's really changed.

Speaker B 00:15:04

My child's really changed since they started learning a year go or whatever that happens to be.

Speaker B 00:15:08

So I think that's a really important thing for people to be aware of.

Speaker A 00:15:12

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A 00:15:13

I mean, you're right because it does.

Speaker A 00:15:15

It brings out a different side of that person they didn't know existed.

Speaker A 00:15:20

And I've had many children that come to me for lessons that didn't know quite where.

Speaker A 00:15:27

Where, why they were taking up the instrument they just had.

Speaker A 00:15:30

And I maybe a friend had sort of played or maybe they parents.

Speaker A 00:15:34

Quite often it's the parents like that.

Speaker A 00:15:36

The parents kind of almost like use their child as like a conduit for the fact they didn't learn as children themselves.

Speaker A 00:15:44

And.

Speaker A 00:15:45

But they've got a passion for music and they, they put it forward to their children and their children pick up on it and then before you know it, they're playing, you know, great pieces of music.

Speaker A 00:15:57

Because they've found themselves within it.

Speaker A 00:15:59

But is very rewarding for a teacher to see that as well, to see the pupil evolve and you know, achieve so much.

Speaker A 00:16:10

I mean, I've got young children and maybe I've got a couple of children I'm teaching about 12, 13, they're already on like grade six or seven because they've just put themselves wholeheartedly into it.

Speaker A 00:16:22

They're getting into like that area where they can play in a band or they're meeting other like minded people they can jam with or, or form friendships because of the music, the, the common interest with music.

Speaker A 00:16:35

So it is an amazing thing to see, to experience firsthand.

Speaker A 00:16:40

And of course the parents love it as well because they see it's a distraction from their other things.

Speaker A 00:16:46

So many young, I mean, I'm sure you're aware that so many young children now are into computer games and it almost takes up their entire life in some ways.

Speaker A 00:16:55

So the music side, if they can offset it and put the time aside to practice, the benefits are just like immeasurable really over time.

Speaker B 00:17:05

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:17:05

And I think, you know, some of sort of even now my best friends are the people that I work with and play, play with professionally because like I say there's something about that kind of connection that you have, which is quite hard to quantify.

Speaker B 00:17:15

But you know, you've got a real passion there that you can share and that comes across in your conversations, but also comes across and also your personalities and the way that you're, that you ate, the way you sort of put those things together.

Speaker B 00:17:27

And I think it's also fascinating about like you say, the teaching side of it because one of the things that I find amazing sometimes is you take a child from quite a young age, maybe all the way through their sort of teenage years to what, what they're doing sort of post school.

Speaker B 00:17:42

And I think that relationship can be really important because children don't have the same teacher across that many years in their academic life necessarily.

Speaker B 00:17:51

And you sort of, they have a safety net with you.

Speaker B 00:17:54

They have that, they, they have that idea of what growth and learning is with one person.

Speaker B 00:17:59

And I think it's a really sort of powerful and important relationship for those children that sort of have that longevity with it as well.

Speaker B 00:18:06

And I think there's, there's something to be said for that.

Speaker A 00:18:09

Oh that, yeah, that's absolutely right.

Speaker A 00:18:12

I mean I've, I've had children that I've taught say from the age of six or seven and usually the drop off or the cutoff point I suppose is when they get to their.

Speaker A 00:18:22

There are sort of A level standards, we only take them up to sort of grade eight because of.

Speaker A 00:18:29

Quite often that you get this, that point where they're doing their GCSEO levels and they go.

Speaker A 00:18:34

And then they're going, preparing to go to university.

Speaker A 00:18:36

So invariably there's a cutoff point when they no longer require to have.

Speaker A 00:18:42

I mean, they might come back in years, years later, but what often happens is that you'll lose contact with them and then say, maybe five years later, you might by chance bump into them.

Speaker A 00:18:54

And of course they've grown up quite considerably since the last time you've seen them, but they remember you.

Speaker A 00:19:00

You know, obviously we get older ourselves, but.

Speaker A 00:19:04

And I've.

Speaker A 00:19:04

I've been taken aback quite often when someone has sort of said, oh, you used to teach me guitar.

Speaker A 00:19:08

Oh, really?

Speaker A 00:19:09

And then they mentioned their name.

Speaker A 00:19:11

Oh, yeah, I remember.

Speaker A 00:19:13

And the, the, obviously the reward is when they say they still play.

Speaker A 00:19:16

Yeah, they still play.

Speaker A 00:19:17

And they're thanking you for the time that you gave to teach them, which is brilliant.

Speaker A 00:19:22

You can't, you can't.

Speaker A 00:19:24

There's very few walks of life.

Speaker A 00:19:26

I mean, teaching gives you that.

Speaker A 00:19:27

Anyway, it's not all about.

Speaker A 00:19:30

I mean, the thing is, I guess the fact that we're teaching primarily one to one, you've got that, like, you say that affinity with the student, like.

Speaker A 00:19:38

Whereas if in a class, it's not so easy to, to do that because you might have people that aren't interested in what you're teaching.

Speaker A 00:19:46

So this is the one to one.

Speaker A 00:19:49

A way of teaching is, is.

Speaker A 00:19:52

Is a bonding, if you like.

Speaker B 00:19:53

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A 00:19:54

And it stays with you.

Speaker B 00:19:56

And I think you, you mentioned there, the GCSE and A levels, and I just like to sort of point out for people listening that there, there is usually a cutoff point at that point, partly because of, like, say, the school ends, you know, logistically, they might go to university and that sort of thing.

Speaker B 00:20:10

And sometimes you find that people say, oh, should we stop the lessons before these exams start?

Speaker B 00:20:14

Because they need to focus on their exams.

Speaker B 00:20:17

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:20:17

And it's, obviously, it's a personal choice as to what you want to do.

Speaker B 00:20:21

The one thing I would always say is the fact that I think as teachers we're fairly aware of what's required when it comes to children learning and the pressures they're under for those sort of formal exams.

Speaker B 00:20:32

But the flip side of that is, is that, you know, I'm always thinking, but you need a break, you need to do something around that.

Speaker B 00:20:39

So if you're still passionate about music, having a practice playing some of the pieces that you know, having time out in a skill and an environment that you know that you love and you've really enjoyed is actually an enhancing experience rather than taking away from revision or taking away from studying.

Speaker B 00:20:55

Because I think that's where the, the, the, the mindset of sort of feeling that sort of stress and well being comes in.

Speaker B 00:21:01

Because it's the, it's the whole sort of fabric of what your life looks like, which is the support, supportive thing.

Speaker B 00:21:06

So yes, of course it's going to ebb and flow and you're going to focus on what you need to.

Speaker B 00:21:09

But keeping up those things which are integral to who you are and why you've been learning is something that I think you should keep in mind.

Speaker A 00:21:16

Yeah, that's very true.

Speaker A 00:21:17

I mean, I, I think back to my journey when I first started to learn to play the guitar.

Speaker A 00:21:23

It wasn't about learning grades or studying pieces of music.

Speaker A 00:21:28

It was.

Speaker A 00:21:29

I just wanted to play like the people I listened to, you know, like the people I grew up listening to.

Speaker A 00:21:34

And it loved their music.

Speaker A 00:21:37

I just wanted to be able to feel that passion the way they did through the music.

Speaker A 00:21:42

And it wasn't all about how many, how, how, how good I can get graded wise.

Speaker A 00:21:48

And it was never about competing with other people.

Speaker A 00:21:50

It was just being the best I could be for my own personal goals and achievements.

Speaker A 00:21:55

So that, that's what started me.

Speaker A 00:21:57

So of course the fact that we as a school, we do encourage children to learn grades.

Speaker A 00:22:04

It's not the be all and end all.

Speaker A 00:22:06

Some people just want to learn for fun.

Speaker A 00:22:07

And I totally get.

Speaker A 00:22:09

Also with adults that we teach, is rare that we get an adult that will come through our school wanting to do grades.

Speaker A 00:22:16

They just want to learn how to play for fun and for their own enjoyment, which is totally fine.

Speaker A 00:22:22

Which is really all it comes down to.

Speaker A 00:22:24

It's about what you get out of it, the enjoyment you get, whether it be the simplest form of song or the most complex arrangement of a piece of music, if that's what makes, makes it work for you, then where.

Speaker A 00:22:36

That's what we try to do.

Speaker A 00:22:37

We try and guide them in that direction.

Speaker B 00:22:39

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:22:39

And you have to be very flexible as a teacher as well to cover all those faces.

Speaker B 00:22:45

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 00:22:46

And I think, I think you sort of mentioned rock school.

Speaker B 00:22:48

I mean, I think some of these organizations are set up really well now because it's that kind of, you know, we can use the material, you can learn some great songs where you can learn the skills that you need to progress.

Speaker B 00:23:02

It gives you a structure.

Speaker B 00:23:03

But like say take the exam, don't take the exam, use it as a step ladder, use it as a guide, whatever, whatever you want it to be.

Speaker B 00:23:10

And I think that flexibility and that understanding, if I'm.

Speaker B 00:23:14

I'm using all the things I've got to my availability to help me do what I'm really enjoying doing.

Speaker B 00:23:20

And that I think in, in the, in the landscape that we're living with an education at the moment about it needing to look like this and do this and don't do that.

Speaker B 00:23:27

I think it's a very sort of freeing thing, which is a very positive.

Speaker A 00:23:31

Yeah, that's very true.

Speaker A 00:23:33

I mean for me as a.

Speaker A 00:23:34

As a musician, I'm a bit like half.

Speaker A 00:23:38

Half of me can read and play.

Speaker A 00:23:41

The other half of me is I use my improvised improvisational skills which doesn't require me to read.

Speaker A 00:23:48

I just feel the music.

Speaker A 00:23:50

So I have a combination of both.

Speaker A 00:23:51

But I.

Speaker A 00:23:52

If I need to study a piece, I can study a piece as well.

Speaker A 00:23:55

But is.

Speaker A 00:23:56

I've got the best of both worlds.

Speaker A 00:23:57

I mean, I say I'm not so person.

Speaker A 00:24:00

I would sit there and sight read every piece of music that I could.

Speaker A 00:24:04

Just sit in with the band and just play whatever they're playing and jam around the ideas.

Speaker A 00:24:09

So there's that element of being a musician as well, which is equally important.

Speaker B 00:24:15

Absolutely.

Speaker B 00:24:16

Couldn't agree more.

Speaker B 00:24:16

So.

Speaker B 00:24:17

So take us into sort of.

Speaker B 00:24:19

You sort of mentioned about the fun and the enjoyment and that sort of thing.

Speaker B 00:24:22

Was that sort of integral to sort of having your own book and sort of giving people the opportunity to be able to sort of learn things in that way?

Speaker B 00:24:30

Did you sort of.

Speaker B 00:24:30

Did you sort of feel there was a gap there or a need to be able to provide something which was going to support people that you.

Speaker B 00:24:36

You weren't able to find elsewhere or was.

Speaker A 00:24:38

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A 00:24:40

Okay.

Speaker A 00:24:40

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:24:41

So I wrote a book last year for.

Speaker A 00:24:45

For children, for a music songbook.

Speaker A 00:24:48

I started doing it, I think probably about the time when we.

Speaker A 00:24:54

We went into Covid.

Speaker A 00:24:55

When we went into lockdown.

Speaker A 00:24:57

Seems like a distant memory now.

Speaker A 00:25:01

At that period I had like so many of us, we were kind of a little bit restricted to movement.

Speaker A 00:25:07

So I spent quite a bit of time at home and I.

Speaker A 00:25:09

We managed to survive by doing online lessons and during that time I started to get the idea of writing songs and also I took up.

Speaker A 00:25:22

I signed up for a.

Speaker A 00:25:23

An online course called from the Songwriting Academy and I think they're London based and I did a course with them and I took.

Speaker A 00:25:31

I had some mentoring as well.

Speaker A 00:25:34

And that went on for quite, quite a few, about three months.

Speaker A 00:25:37

I think I did that.

Speaker A 00:25:38

And what I learned, the skills I developed from that was how to compose and how to, you know, be more concise with the way of putting a song together.

Speaker A 00:25:49

But what I decided to do because I, I thought, well, primarily I teach children.

Speaker A 00:25:54

So for me it was like, why don't I write a book for children?

Speaker A 00:25:58

And I was aware if I.

Speaker A 00:26:00

I started doing some research and I was, I was aware that most of the song books out there specifically for guitar, not so much for piano, but for guitar, like, had like beginner songs, were almost always the traditional nursery rhymes that we all grew up listening to, which are like, they're ancient on it.

Speaker A 00:26:19

They go back hundreds of years in some places.

Speaker A 00:26:22

So I decided to write something in, in relation to that, but in a modern form.

Speaker A 00:26:30

So what I did, I managed, managed to get the ideas for the songs from the children that I taught.

Speaker A 00:26:37

They come up with like a subject matter and I flesh it out from that point.

Speaker A 00:26:44

For example, I had one song.

Speaker A 00:26:46

I have a song called Jeff the Dancing Shark, which is basically a song that a little boy I was teaching said, can we write a song about a show?

Speaker A 00:26:56

And I was aware that, oh yeah, okay, you've got Baby Shark and all of these things like that.

Speaker A 00:27:00

They said, I want to call it Jeff.

Speaker A 00:27:02

Okay.

Speaker A 00:27:03

I said, let's work with that.

Speaker A 00:27:04

And after that I developed the song.

Speaker A 00:27:07

It took a while, got the melody.

Speaker A 00:27:09

The melodies came a lot easier than the words.

Speaker A 00:27:11

But ultimately I managed to create the character.

Speaker A 00:27:15

I got an illustrator to do the, the work for the book.

Speaker A 00:27:19

I got a guy from Rock School who I knew really well.

Speaker A 00:27:22

He did all the backing tracks for me.

Speaker A 00:27:24

And then I used local singers to do the, the vocals for the each song.

Speaker A 00:27:29

So I.

Speaker A 00:27:30

And then I got someone to score out all the music as well, from for piano and for tablature, for guitar.

Speaker A 00:27:35

I mean, I did most of a lot of it myself, but I needed someone to do it, like using Sibelius.

Speaker A 00:27:42

So that's what I did.

Speaker A 00:27:43

I created the book, got a publishing deal, and I put the book out about just under a year ago.

Speaker A 00:27:50

And it's widely available through Amazon and Waterstones.

Speaker A 00:27:55

And I'd like to say it's of sure for a success, but it's been very slow.

Speaker A 00:28:01

I realized that I need to work harder the other side of the actual publication, but I need to do things more like Tick Tock or Instagram postings which I'm not so good at, but it's something I'm, I'm working on to try and get a bit more traction with the book.

Speaker B 00:28:21

Yeah, it's kind of that sort of make it just pick and people aware, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:28:24

Like you say, you sort of think the hard work is the creator, the creating everything, but actually often it comes a little bit further around.

Speaker B 00:28:30

But I think, I think these conversations are really important because it's the same, it's the same when you're learning an instrument, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:28:35

It's like you think it's up to this point, oh, it's about learning the music.

Speaker B 00:28:38

Oh, and then I've got the skills of having to perform and then I've got the skills of being able to do this and that and maybe I'll record it or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker B 00:28:44

There's all these extra things around.

Speaker B 00:28:46

And I think for me as well, whenever we sort of find ourselves in those positions, it's that kind of, oh, I've got something new to learn now.

Speaker B 00:28:53

Or this feels a little bit, I've got in my comfort zone doing what I do day to day, and now I've got something different which takes me out of that.

Speaker B 00:28:59

And I always think, yeah, there's a real positivity in that because then I kind of remember, oh yeah, because the people I'm teaching, they're out of their comfort zone a lot of the time because we're doing something new.

Speaker B 00:29:08

And I think there's a, there's something about the humanity of understanding that which so makes me a better teacher or certainly a better musician, I think.

Speaker A 00:29:15

Yeah, you've got a good point there.

Speaker A 00:29:17

Because, yeah, like say I, I'm within my profession as a teacher.

Speaker A 00:29:23

I, I go to work every day like everyone else does, but I, I, I know exactly what I'm doing.

Speaker A 00:29:28

Every lesson I teach is, is different.

Speaker A 00:29:31

I, I accommodate my lesson to according to who I'm teaching, how they need to learn, what I think they need to focus on.

Speaker A 00:29:39

But outside of that, I, I'm say going on to things like the Internet, putting up promotion, promoting a book on the Internet is something I'm not very, very skilled at this point.

Speaker A 00:29:53

So it's a learning curve for me, which I'm still struggling with.

Speaker A 00:29:59

But I'm sure the good thing is once, unlike say, if you put a post up anything on, say, Facebook, it's kind of red and then people move on.

Speaker A 00:30:07

But with something like a product, you can keep, is you can keep promoting it, keep Putting it out there and hopefully find a market for it, which is what I'm.

Speaker A 00:30:19

I'm intending to do, but I just need to be a little bit more proactive with it, which is probably the only thing that I'm lacking at the moment is that little bit of.

Speaker A 00:30:29

A bit more drive towards getting it out.

Speaker A 00:30:31

I was under the impression once it was out there was just going to sell itself, but it's clearly not.

Speaker A 00:30:36

There's a lot of people doing similar things.

Speaker B 00:30:39

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:30:39

And I think I speak to a lot of authors on the show, obviously, because they've created something that's supporting education in whichever way that happens to be.

Speaker B 00:30:46

And I hear that story a lot.

Speaker B 00:30:48

It's.

Speaker B 00:30:48

It's about.

Speaker A 00:30:49

Oh, yeah.

Speaker B 00:30:49

Understanding that, like saying.

Speaker B 00:30:51

Getting that message out there and just, you know, like, say the more conversations you have, the better.

Speaker B 00:30:54

That's really.

Speaker A 00:30:55

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:30:55

And I think it's good because it's a reflection on, in a way, of how some of my students feel when they're struggling to get, you know, their skill set together for.

Speaker A 00:31:05

To perform a piece or to do a.

Speaker A 00:31:07

An exam.

Speaker A 00:31:08

And they're frustrated and they think, oh, I'm never going to get as good as I need to.

Speaker A 00:31:12

But what I'm seeing at the other side now, I'm thinking, well, I've got to feel the same way about what I'm trying to achieve with what I've done.

Speaker A 00:31:19

And I.

Speaker A 00:31:20

Is just don't give up.

Speaker A 00:31:22

Never always believe in what you.

Speaker A 00:31:24

You do, but keep striving to be this the best you can.

Speaker A 00:31:28

And hopefully I'll get a breakthrough with it at some point and someone will pick up on it and say, this is great.

Speaker A 00:31:34

We want to, you know, enhance the sound of your book.

Speaker A 00:31:40

And then, yeah, it will start doing.

Speaker A 00:31:42

I've got enough material to write two more books, but because I haven't been selling this one, I.

Speaker A 00:31:47

I kind of feel like I've lost my mojo a little bit.

Speaker A 00:31:51

But that's just kind of expect.

Speaker A 00:31:53

I've kind of got used.

Speaker A 00:31:54

I've.

Speaker A 00:31:54

I've got some sort of.

Speaker A 00:31:57

I think when it first came out, I was very excited.

Speaker A 00:32:00

I think, as any author, new author would be, you've got something out of products out on the market.

Speaker A 00:32:05

But after a few months, I sort of.

Speaker A 00:32:07

My feet came.

Speaker A 00:32:08

I came back down to earth a bit and realized it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be and I need to try harder to try and to do the right thing to promote it.

Speaker B 00:32:18

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:32:18

And I think the.

Speaker B 00:32:19

I think it's a bit like the teaching that sort of.

Speaker B 00:32:22

The arc of that learning process is really key, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:32:24

I mean, I don't know, maybe this resonates with you.

Speaker B 00:32:27

It's.

Speaker B 00:32:28

I sort of try when my pupils start to understand that you start with a piece and it feels really difficult because you're learning new skills or there's something different there.

Speaker B 00:32:37

And then you do the repetition and it gets a bit easier, but you don't quite know it as well as you could do.

Speaker B 00:32:42

But then it gets easier, and then you think you know it, and then you realize that if you had to perform it, you quite know it well enough, and then you repeat it again and you keep playing it, and then you can almost do it in your sleep, and you're like, I can't imagine I didn't do this to begin with.

Speaker B 00:32:53

And I say, once you understand that arc, you've kind of got it nailed.

Speaker B 00:32:57

Because all we're then going to do is we're going to have another piece and another piece, and it might get more difficult.

Speaker B 00:33:01

But when you understand where you are in that cycle, then you can kind of give yourself a little bit of grace and say, it's okay.

Speaker B 00:33:07

I'm not able to play it just yet, but I will be able to play it in time.

Speaker B 00:33:10

And you sort of.

Speaker B 00:33:11

You sort of have some sort of solace in understanding that.

Speaker B 00:33:13

And I think what you were talking about there in terms of sort of the promotional side and.

Speaker B 00:33:17

And the able to sort of share that it's the same sort of thing.

Speaker B 00:33:20

You know, you think it's going to look like this and then it's not, but then you get a bit of traction and then you do you have another thought about doing something differently, and then you learn how to do that, and then you sort of go around that cycle again.

Speaker B 00:33:31

And like I say that the identification of that, I think is.

Speaker B 00:33:33

And the journey that you understand that is, I think, certainly gives me a little bit of solace in the things that I do sort of, okay, where am I on this sort of arc?

Speaker B 00:33:41

And then I sort of, what can I do next?

Speaker B 00:33:43

And then that kind of helps me anyway.

Speaker A 00:33:45

Yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker A 00:33:46

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:33:47

It's just.

Speaker A 00:33:48

It's like I say, it's like reconfiguring the way you.

Speaker A 00:33:53

You set out to do it and try different things.

Speaker A 00:33:56

Try.

Speaker A 00:33:56

I mean, I.

Speaker A 00:33:58

I should know this in a way because I'm.

Speaker A 00:33:59

I'm a.

Speaker A 00:34:00

I'm a gigging musician and I.

Speaker A 00:34:03

I play.

Speaker A 00:34:04

I don't.

Speaker A 00:34:04

I don't play in a band these Days I don't have so much time to do that.

Speaker A 00:34:08

I just play in a duo and the guy I play with, we, we primarily just do local gigs over here.

Speaker A 00:34:15

Caught some corporates, some weddings, but a lot of restaurant work.

Speaker A 00:34:18

But we actually just play instrumental guitar music.

Speaker A 00:34:22

So we don't sing and so.

Speaker A 00:34:24

But we play our repertoires vast.

Speaker A 00:34:26

It's like over 200 plus songs.

Speaker A 00:34:28

But whenever we bring in a new song, it's always a little bit of apprehension.

Speaker A 00:34:33

We rehearsed it, but when you put it out into the public domain, you always think, how are we gonna, how's this gonna come across?

Speaker A 00:34:41

What if we make mistakes?

Speaker A 00:34:42

And you realize it's just a learning curve.

Speaker A 00:34:45

Everything you do, you have to process it.

Speaker A 00:34:48

And then you keep.

Speaker A 00:34:49

If it doesn't quite work, I think you get a good reaction.

Speaker A 00:34:52

You're.

Speaker A 00:34:53

You can do it again.

Speaker A 00:34:54

And then you, there's a positive feeling.

Speaker A 00:34:57

And then I've played many gigs where I thought I didn't play so well.

Speaker A 00:35:01

And then someone will come up say, that was brilliant.

Speaker A 00:35:03

I really love what you guys did.

Speaker A 00:35:05

So you just don't know.

Speaker A 00:35:07

You don't know.

Speaker A 00:35:07

So you can be your own worst critic, but at the end of the day you, you can't be relying on just, you know, oh, I know this well enough, it's going to be fine.

Speaker A 00:35:19

You've still got to be a hundred percent every time I could play.

Speaker A 00:35:23

I mean, I'm sure professional bands like everything say that you think someone like maybe the Rolling Stones, how many times they must have played Satisfaction or, you know, Give Me Shelter, all those amazing songs, but they still have to perform it every single time as good as they can because people expect it.

Speaker A 00:35:44

And you can't be too complacent.

Speaker A 00:35:47

You can never sort of think, ah, I needn't get any better.

Speaker A 00:35:51

You've got to keep improving to get as good as you can and then prove to yourself that you've got the capabilities to do that.

Speaker A 00:36:01

So it's the same process for putting out a book.

Speaker A 00:36:04

I can't.

Speaker A 00:36:05

Just because I've got a book out that doesn't mean it's.

Speaker A 00:36:07

Everyone's going to love it.

Speaker A 00:36:08

I've got to keep proving that it's a worthwhile pursuit and it's worth people investing in it.

Speaker A 00:36:16

Yeah, very, very hard.

Speaker B 00:36:18

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker B 00:36:20

And we sort of talked about sort of the experience that we've had as teachers and sort of looking back, but it's there a teacher that you remember or an education experience that you remember that it could be positive or Negative.

Speaker B 00:36:31

But I, I certainly also understand that maybe I've sort of drawn on that experience in terms of the way I then now come across sort of in, in my professional work.

Speaker A 00:36:40

That's not specifically a teacher.

Speaker A 00:36:43

I mean, I had, I've had, I, I could think back when I was learning to play.

Speaker A 00:36:49

There was.

Speaker A 00:36:49

I picked up lots of different things from different people I knew.

Speaker A 00:36:53

Quite often it was a friend, you know, that I, I sort of jam with and we'd pick up ideas from each other.

Speaker A 00:37:00

And then as I had a great experience of seeing so many live performers growing up, that they were like the catalyst for me to want to, to learn to play.

Speaker A 00:37:11

And I actually learned from people that I teach, funny enough, it might sound, sound a bit sort of back to front, but I often learn things that, that I wouldn't have picked up on if I hadn't.

Speaker A 00:37:26

They had like a child or so why do we do this?

Speaker A 00:37:30

And then you kind of analyze what you're teaching them because they've asked the question, you know, and sometimes things you take for granted, it has to be pointed out, this isn't always the way that other people think.

Speaker A 00:37:45

I mean, the music I grew up listening to, for example, I, I take for granted now that the, the artists that I grew up listening to, I assume everyone would like them the same way I do, but that's not the case.

Speaker A 00:37:58

So I'll often get a young, say it's a 10, 11 year old child say, they've never heard of that music.

Speaker A 00:38:06

And I have to reassess that and think, well, I need to teach in a different way because I need to teach in a modern way.

Speaker A 00:38:14

Although the theoretical aspects of music remain the same, but the approach to teaching is different because that person doesn't think that way that I do about music.

Speaker A 00:38:27

You know, I think I'm thinking about things like rap music, a lot of young children into rap.

Speaker A 00:38:31

And I think how do I teach that style of music to young people?

Speaker A 00:38:36

And so you have to find a way to relate it so that they, they want to learn with you.

Speaker A 00:38:43

You know, you've got to stay young.

Speaker A 00:38:45

I think that's probably the, the key thing here.

Speaker A 00:38:48

If you don't stay young, you feel you become obsolete.

Speaker B 00:38:52

Yeah, and that's kind of like we were saying at the beginning about that kind of opportunity and experience, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:38:56

Because what you do have is the ability to open up this whole back catalog of amazing music.

Speaker B 00:39:01

But you don't get to do any of that just by saying, right, we're going to start by listening to Black Sabbath.

Speaker B 00:39:05

Because they're like exactly, exactly.

Speaker B 00:39:07

What's that?

Speaker B 00:39:08

You need that initial in and like say understanding what they might be already exposed to or something they might be listening to.

Speaker A 00:39:14

That is exactly the whole point.

Speaker A 00:39:16

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:39:16

As a teacher you can't go in like say this is what you're going to be learning because immediately you're on the back foot with that child because they're not interested.

Speaker A 00:39:25

You've got to embrace what they want to learn and find ways to introduce the music that you, you, you're passionate about.

Speaker A 00:39:32

And ultimately if they can start are engaging with music from the past as well as the present, then you're, you've achieved your goal which is giving them a well rounded education.

Speaker B 00:39:43

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B 00:39:44

Is there a piece of advice you were given or maybe a piece of advice you give your younger self, looking back now that you think might be valuable?

Speaker A 00:39:56

Yeah, I wish I'd.

Speaker A 00:39:58

I mean I look at the age of some children that start learning instruments now they're like five, four.

Speaker A 00:40:04

It was ridiculously young.

Speaker A 00:40:05

I wish I'd learned maybe a bit younger so that I had more of a head start.

Speaker A 00:40:09

Because although having said that, I'm not sure I would have been become a teacher in the way that I did if I'd gone a different path.

Speaker A 00:40:17

It's impossible to say, but yeah.

Speaker A 00:40:21

And I think the advice I would give myself is that have a bit more belief in my convictions because obviously there's a time and I see in a lot of young people when they're, they're not sure where they're going with.

Speaker A 00:40:33

Of course when you're going through life, your early learning years, of course you're not sure where your life's going to go in the next 10, 20 years.

Speaker A 00:40:42

But I would hope that I, I would have had a bit more belief in my convictions at a younger age.

Speaker A 00:40:50

I guess I'm looking at my.

Speaker A 00:40:53

I've got a daughter who's 23 now, or 22.

Speaker A 00:40:57

23.

Speaker A 00:40:57

She's just finishing her last year of degree course in, up in Northumbria.

Speaker A 00:41:04

She's doing a degree in arts, fine arts and she's very talented, but she's at that point in her life where she's coming out of uni, she's going to be going into the work, the working environment, into a full time education, sorry, full time work.

Speaker A 00:41:21

And she's unsure where her life's gonna evolve, how her life's going to evolve in the next few years.

Speaker A 00:41:28

And I understand where she's coming from because although she's got that qualification.

Speaker A 00:41:32

It's not set, there's no path set to say this is exactly how your life's going to be.

Speaker A 00:41:36

You've just got to rely on what you've learned, the skills you have, obviously, obviously your qualifications, but that.

Speaker A 00:41:44

That can only manifest over time, I guess.

Speaker A 00:41:50

So, yeah.

Speaker A 00:41:51

I wish I'd had a bit more understanding of which way it would have gone an earlier age, but impossible to say, really.

Speaker B 00:41:59

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 00:42:00

Exactly.

Speaker B 00:42:01

Now, obviously, the acronym FIRE is really important to us here on the show, and by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment.

Speaker B 00:42:09

What is it that strikes you when you see that?

Speaker B 00:42:12

Either one individual word or maybe even.

Speaker A 00:42:14

Collectively, all four of them, actually, all four words.

Speaker A 00:42:19

Undoubtedly.

Speaker A 00:42:21

Feedback is important to get.

Speaker A 00:42:23

You know that particularly in my job, I need feedback from the.

Speaker A 00:42:27

The people I'm teaching.

Speaker A 00:42:28

Also the parents, they feel like their child is getting the right education and they get.

Speaker A 00:42:35

If they get good exam results, I get a lot of great feedback.

Speaker A 00:42:38

That's really important to me.

Speaker A 00:42:40

Inspiration is what I provide for children as I teach them.

Speaker A 00:42:44

All my knowledge and all my years of doing it and how I got connected with music in the first place is very much through inspiration.

Speaker A 00:42:55

Resilience.

Speaker A 00:42:56

Keep trying, keep pushing.

Speaker A 00:42:58

Try to be the best you can.

Speaker A 00:42:59

Even when you feel like it's not going as you expect, you've got to keep trying.

Speaker A 00:43:04

And, yeah, that is such an important part of life anyway.

Speaker A 00:43:08

And empowerment.

Speaker A 00:43:09

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:43:10

To give people the belief that they can become anything they want and is part of being a teacher.

Speaker A 00:43:16

You know, those things strike me straight away about those four words.

Speaker B 00:43:23

Yeah, I.

Speaker B 00:43:23

I couldn't agree more.

Speaker B 00:43:24

And it's been absolutely brilliant just chatting to you about music.

Speaker B 00:43:28

It's not something I get.

Speaker A 00:43:29

Is that gone already?

Speaker A 00:43:29

Have we done an hour?

Speaker B 00:43:31

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 00:43:32

Time flies as we get, as we go through.

Speaker B 00:43:34

So, yeah, thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom from all of that.

Speaker B 00:43:37

And.

Speaker B 00:43:38

And I think it's really important for.

Speaker B 00:43:39

For people to hear it, especially if they're in the learning and education world.

Speaker B 00:43:44

But I think music isn't necessarily always in the front.

Speaker B 00:43:47

Front of their mind.

Speaker B 00:43:48

So I think to sort of hear how it is from our side of the track, as it were, so to speak.

Speaker B 00:43:51

I think is.

Speaker B 00:43:52

Is really important.

Speaker A 00:43:53

It shapes my life, Mark.

Speaker A 00:43:54

Without doubt, without music, I wouldn't have what I have now.

Speaker A 00:43:59

I mean, it really has shame.

Speaker A 00:44:01

Oh, before you do go, a little plug for my book here.

Speaker A 00:44:10

There you go.

Speaker B 00:44:13

Fantastic.

Speaker B 00:44:14

And we'll make sure we've got.

Speaker B 00:44:15

We've got a link, obviously, to the website and everything on the description.

Speaker B 00:44:19

So they'll be able to.

Speaker A 00:44:19

Yeah, I mean, obviously any.

Speaker A 00:44:22

Any sales are greatly appreciated, but as I say, it's not all about financial gain.

Speaker A 00:44:27

It's about getting recognition for an achievement.

Speaker A 00:44:30

For myself, I'm proud of what I've done with it.

Speaker A 00:44:33

And as I say, it's something that I never imagined I would become an author aside of being a teacher, which is an added bonus for me at my stage in life.

Speaker B 00:44:45

Fantastic.

Speaker B 00:44:46

And.

Speaker B 00:44:46

And just leave people with the website for the music school as well, so they.

Speaker B 00:44:49

If they.

Speaker B 00:44:49

If they are in a way of needing that support, then they can find that.

Speaker A 00:44:53

Yeah, it's.

Speaker A 00:44:54

Www.janker.co.uk okay.

Speaker A 00:44:59

J E N C A.

Speaker B 00:45:02

Fantastic.

Speaker B 00:45:02

We'll have a link to that in the.

Speaker B 00:45:03

In the show notes as well.

Speaker B 00:45:05

Super brilliant.

Speaker A 00:45:06

Thank you, Mark.

Speaker B 00:45:07

Lovely.

Speaker B 00:45:07

Thanks, Martin.

Speaker B 00:45:08

I really appreciate your time and a great conversation and wish you the best with your book and all your continued success with the music school.

Speaker A 00:45:15

Thank you so much.

Speaker A 00:45:16

Thank you for your time today.

Speaker A 00:45:18

Much appreciated.

Speaker B 00:45:20

Education is not the filling of a pail but the lighting of a fire.